Ajustable Roller Nut

Lonnie Terry · From: Penticton B.C. Canada

Would this be practical say on a threaded rod system with a finger nut to adjust each string length ? Then again steel has always sounded good to me over the years with out to many additions.!

Lonnie

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

If you adjust the length of the strings from the nut end,it seems to me that whatever intonation improvements you had achieved(if any)would vanish as soon as you laid a straight bar across the strings.I do however feel it is high time someone offered a nut roller with adjustable height for the individual strings.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I think that any mechanical devices might run the danger of interfering with the sustain and tone of the instrument. I also think that a competent machinist could make A LOT OF MONEY if he (he/she/it, PC) were to offer graduated roller sets to retrofit the major brands of new and used steels on the market. I'd buy 'em.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I agree with Michael. I am not so sure a machinist would make a lot of money. Because his cost's with proper markup would cause most players NOT to do it.

The real answer is what Michael suggests. It should have been standard on high end PSG's for over 30 yrs.

I see it as JUST as necessary as the adjustable bridge on quality lead guitars. Albeit for a different reason. To have string rattle at the first few frets without excessive bar pressure, is simply inexcusable!! Not only is it tiring but it deters the "ebb and flow" that is soooo much a part of the steel guitar.

carl

David Doggett · Posted 23 Mar 2003 7:26 am

David, I've heard that Zum, MSA and Emmons guitars have some rollers with wide grooves to let the big wound strings sit lower and be more level with the smaller strings. I've been trying to get someone who owns one of these to post the measurements of their rollers so I can see if off-the-shelf rollers from these manufacturers would fit my Fessy, on which all the rollers have a single size groove. There was a long thread about graduated nut rollers about a week ago, but almost nobody provided measurements. You need to know the roller width, roller diameter, groove width, and axle diameter. I know that Emmons rollers on my P/P will not fit my Fessy because the axle is too small - don't know about newer Emmons all-pulls. I have hopes for Zum and MSA if someone would post the measurements. I e-mailed 10 manufacturers and not a single one gave me their roller measurements - so it is strictly up to us players to swap measurements and see what can be mixed and matched.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

David,

Here are some facts. I ordered a set of gauged rollers from Sierra, Emmons AND Excel. In EVERY case they were worse than the ones that came on the guitar.

This says to me that all these oversimplified answers to making gauged rollers just do not survive the acid test. If they were as easy to make as has often been suggested, this and other threads would be superfluous.

carl

richard burton · From: Britain

David, here's an idea, I think it would work, but I'm not 100% sure.
Take the rollers out of your Fessy.
Drill out the hole so that the roller will sit lower on its axle.
Determine the size of the hole by calculation, ie, if you use a 052 string, and want it the same height as a 038, you have got to lose 014 on the radius of the hole, or 028 on the diameter. Measure the existing hole diameter, and drill it out 028 bigger.
Of course, it may not roll correctly on its axle, that's why I'm not 100% sure if it would work. But as long as it's not my guitar......

David Doggett · Posted 23 Mar 2003 2:08 pm

Carl, what do you mean by the the guaged rollers you got from Sierra, Emmons and Excel were "worse"? Were they not guaged, or guaged wrong, or what? My Emmons P/P 12 string has wider grooves only on the lowest two strings, and that is good enough to take care of most of the problem. So for the Fessy I'm just looking for a couple of rollers from any manufacturer that have wider grooves than the Fessy and will fit the Fessy axle (3/32"). I don't even need a whole set. What were the measurements on the sets you got?

Richard, there is a little clearance under the Fessy rollers, so I suppose I could drill out a really big axle hole to let the roller sit lower on the big strings. But I'm a little worried about what it will do to the tone to have a roller with a hole so much bigger than the axle. I think before I did that I would just get Emmons rollers and drill them out to fit the Fessy axle. But if someone has off-the-shelf rollers with wide grooves and that fit the Fessy axle then I wont have to do any drilling.

Fred Einspruch · From: Alaska

If I was really worried about this problem, here is what I would do:

1)order two sets of rollers for my guitar, thats 20 rollers, with the small size groove for obviously the smaller size strings.

2)calculate or approximate the amount of string "drop" I desired. This might be several different values to get all those strings really "flat".

3)find my local friendy machine shop and explane the problem and have him machine the first "new" set of rollers to the best of his ability. Make sure that he records his actions so that he can replicate any correct
rollers that he produces.

4)Repeat steps 1 thru 3 until the tops of your strings at fret 1 are as flat as a silicon wafer.

5)Once you have acheived #4, have your machinist machine any and all of the second sets of rollers you now have acumulated in steps 1 thru 3.

AND LASTLY:

6)Offer up that second set of rollers here on the forum.

Really boys and girls, it ain't near as hard as playing the damn thing. Regards,Fred

David Doggett · Posted 24 Mar 2003 6:28 am

Fred, something like that will be what I do if I can't find something I can just mail order from off-the-shelf. It just seems ridiculous to have to go to a machinist for a custom made part that is probably a dollar item already sitting in a bin at several manufacturers. You don't really need a custom guaged roller for each string. Just one or two larger sized grooves for the lower strings takes care of 90% of the problem.

James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

I'm thinking that if you have a custom set of rollers that are gauged for each individual sting, what do you do if you change to a set of strings with different gauages ??...I would agree that there really has to be larger grooves in at least the wound strings....That in my opinion would at least be a good start..
A nut with a height adjustment for each string like on a guitar would also aide in better string height...Set up properly on a guitar the strings don't buzz, and I don't think they would on a pedal steel if set properly..Jim

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jim,
The answer to your question is similar to the tuning issues we've addressed elsewhere: There is a tolerance range that is acceptable. A few thousandths (e.g. going from an 017 to an 018 for your 5th string on E9) wouldn't make any noticeable difference. HOWEVER, I have strings that are 010 to 015 lower than others. That is clearly beyond the acceptable tolerance and not only will the string BUZZ, it will not even FRET without substantial bar pressure. This problem is much more pronounced for 12- and 14-string guitars which, I believe, is one reason most builders have ignored it.

I am currently going through my second iteration with my machine shop buddies to get them perfect and expect that within 2 or 3 days all strings will be totally flat on top and bar pressure alone will be sufficient to produce a clean chord at frets 1,2, and 3. We did the calculations and it still came out wrong, so trial and error is all that works for me. That's why scientists actually PERFORM EXERIMENTS rather than simply calculate what the results should be.

And, to have something in my response that's on topic

I have never felt the need to adjust the LENGTH of the strings for the sake of intonation, but adjusting the HEIGHT has been something that's bugged me off and on for nearly 30 years. And, FWIW, the ZumSteel was the best 'out of the box' of any guitar I've owned for proper roller nut gauges.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 March 2003 at 02:21 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

David,

What I meant was this. When I received all my steels new, one or more strings "rattled" or "buzzed" at the first few frets. Partciulary on C6 and on my U-12.

After calling the manufacturer (in each case) they sent me new sets of "gauged" rollers. Two went so far as to tape the rollers in a row so as to not get them mixed up.

Sadly, in all three cases, the so-called "gauged rollers" I received, caused even MORE rattle or string buzz at the first few frets; albeit, NOT necessarily the same strings.

I repeat something I posted in another thread. "IF making gauged roller is soooo simple to do, HOW come 3 different manufacturers did not do it for me? And how come sooooo much rhetoric about it on this forum?

I stated that it was much harder than most thought and it required NOT only trig but a bit of calculus as well to get them right.

Until such time as the problem is solved, I shall continue to hold to that theory since the "proof of the pudding" IS STILL "in the eating"

God bles syou all,

carl

Skip Mertz · From: N.C. (deceased)

Have bought a cpl guaged rollers from Emmons
live near factory and have seen the rollers all in dif drawers! If they wernt guaged why bother?
I got a 12 guage roller to replace my 11 cause I wanted to use a heavier string on the third
Believe me it makes a dif.! they must be guaged! skip

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