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Topic: "Steel" confused newbie |
Yanick Roy
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 10:12 am |
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Hello,
This is my very first post here.
First of all, congratulations to all of you! What a wonderful site and what a nice community. Lately I have been browsing the site a lot for info and found that most of you are eager to share and help. This honours all of you...
Despite my researches and efforts, (I didn’t want to bother you guys for nothing, so I did some homework) I’m still a bit confused.
I have been playing guitar for 25 years and banjo for 5, I want to buy, learn and play pedal steel. Nothing too fancy, I just want to be able to play what most of you would consider “cliché” pedal steel. I want to have the option of adding a “typical” pedal steel track to a demo recording if I want to (I’m an arranger). My understanding of the pedal steel world is still very limited but I doubt I will ever outgrow an S-10, 3 pedals and 1 or 2 knee lever. From my researches of this site, anything more would be kind of overkill for the type of music I’m into (Alt-Country, Wilco, The Jayhawks, Blue Rodeo, Neil Young, Gram Parson, Flying Burrito Brothers, Early Emmylou, etc). Please correct me if I’m wrong.
I need something built like a tank, something I can service myself if needed, low maintenance with cheap replacement parts. (I live in Montreal, Canada: not exactly Steel Pedal Capital of the world, so any repairs, complex maintenance, fragile parts will cost me a fortune)
I’m looking to spend around 1000$ (tax, shipping, duty, etc included), which I’ll have to save up over a few months, so there’s no rush and I can wait to find THE bargain on some suggestions you guys might have. ( I play a bit of lap steel, so I already have a volume pedal, a nice amp, a bar, etc) So far, from what I can gather from this site, my options are: Fender 400, Maverick, Carter Starter, Stage One, GFI student. Are there any other options? Or important info I should know (High maintenance, Costly repairs and parts)?
Thank you
PS: please excuse my subpar English, my first language is French |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 10:21 am
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look at the list of guitars I that I have owned in my signature, and with that said I just placed and order for a Zum stage one for my wife . that should tell you something ...by the way it has a delivery date of mid-June
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick
Last edited by Calvin Walley on 24 Apr 2013 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 10:28 am
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Welcome, Yanick!
For @$1000 you should be able to pick up an old MSA or Dekley S-10 with 3 pedals and four knee levers. Built like a tank per your requirements, easily self-serviced, and a professional instrument. The Fender Artist (built by Sho Bud for Fender) is another good choice, but fewer come up for sale. Michael Yahl has a lot of new replacement parts for these guitars (although his shop is down for a while as he moves locations).
Dan |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 11:00 am
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Al Brisco would be a good start. He has what is left of the Carter Guitar co. He also has others.
Al is in Colborne, Ontario
http://www.steelguitarcanada.com/ |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 11:07 am
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Should have also mentioned BMI:
Dan |
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Yanick Roy
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 12:17 pm
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| Thanks a lot for your input. Few of you have suggested the models I have listed in my original post ( fender 400, maverick, carter starter, etc) Is it because they are obvious or because they are prone to problems? Bad tuning, fragile, cheaply built, etc? Thanks again for your time and input |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 12:42 pm Re: "Steel" confused newbie
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Welcome.
Your English is excellent, and not just for a non-native speaker.
However, when you said this:
| Yanick Roy wrote: |
| banjo for 5 |
You isolated yourself from a large part of the forum's membership.  (I'm not one of them - I dig banjo - but many here hate it.)
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here. |
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Yanick Roy
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 12:57 pm Re: "Steel" confused newbie
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| John Scanlon wrote: |
Welcome.
Your English is excellent, and not just for a non-native speaker.
However, when you said this:
| Yanick Roy wrote: |
| banjo for 5 |
You isolated yourself from a large part of the forum's membership. (I'm not one of them - I dig banjo - but many here hate it.) |
Euh? Ok, more than willing to be converted! Trust me the more i get help here the less action this banjo will get. Is that a deal or what?  |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 1:19 pm
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Bienvenue Yanick
you're gonna have a blast in this ward, believe me
i don't think we hate banjos - it's just that we had to learn banjo licks & rolls to get gigs...
the Stage One is a great Bang 4 $ psg
it's copedent or set up cannot be modified tho'
i would recommend you save up more $$$ & invest in a pro model
such as the ZumSteel Encore, or the Justice Pro Lite
a pro model will keep you picking for many moons
whatever you do Don't Rush ok ?
lotsa good folks & good advice here |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 2:44 pm
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the reason I ordered the stage one for sandy is that its a sweet sounding guitar , no problems, easy as any to play and its light
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 3:06 pm
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| Quote: |
| My understanding of the pedal steel world is still very limited but I doubt I will ever outgrow an S-10, 3 pedals and 1 or 2 knee lever. From my researches of this site, anything more would be kind of overkill for the type of music I’m into (Alt-Country, Wilco, The Jayhawks, Blue Rodeo, Neil Young, Gram Parson, Flying Burrito Brothers, Early Emmylou, etc). Please correct me if I’m wrong. |
Yanick--your communication skills are just fine. No problem. Please consider this: unlike some steel guitar beginners, you are a musician. You understand what it means to learn to play an instrument. And what it means to play an instrument.
Pedal steel is something that will kick your ass every time you practice but it will also give up enough rewards that you will come back for more the next day. The day that you gain the satisfaction of having learned a particular thing that you were sure is all you ever intended to learn in order to play your 'cliche' licks, you will know that you want to figure out how somebody did that other great thing on that other great record. You will be questing until you die. You will always know that there's something else you want to be able to do.
I recommend that you do not buy something that will very likely be outgrown. In other words, get 4 knee levers. You can play a lot of music on 1 and 2. But the last thing you want is to find that your guitar cannot do something that you (the more advanced you) are hearing.
Most of the artists that you list had high end steel players with high end guitars.
Of your listed steels, I think the Stage One is your best bet. The Carter-Starter has 4 levers but is really intended as a true 'starter'--once you are confident that it is more than a whim, it is time to upgrade to something more solid (it serves this purpose very well). Fender & Maverick don't have the levers. GFI I am not sure about.
I do go on & on. Hope you get my point.
Good luck! |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 3:14 pm
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| Dan Beller-McKenna wrote: |
Welcome, Yanick!
For @$1000 you should be able to pick up an old MSA or Dekley S-10 with 3 pedals and four knee levers. Built like a tank per your requirements, easily self-serviced, and a professional instrument.
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Dan is absolutely right. I was going to make the exact same recommendation. Dan did it first.
Either of these will suit you.
You might also consider a Stage One, Encore, Legend (formerly called the carpsteel) or Simmons. All of these have 10 strings, 3 pedals and 4 knee levers.
DO NOT BUY A GUITAR WITH LESS THAN 4 KNEE LEVERS.
If you plan to play rock, you might want to get s 12 string. The extra strings let you play rock chords.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Yanick Roy
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 4:12 pm
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Wow, you guys are amazing! So friendly and helpful, I'm blown away by the spirit of this site.
Ok just to add to the musician jokes ( one of you sent me a link to a very funny banjo joke ) maybe thats an idea for another thread "musician jokes" anyways, here are two jokes:
Q: how do you call a guy who hangs around musicians?
A: a drummer
Q: how long does it take to tune a 12 strings guitar?
A: who knows
Ok, i appreciate the input but let me play devil's advocate for a sec ( no offence intended im just trying to understand) if i understand correctly 'codependant' means fixed to a certain tuning/set up, in other words a 'closed universe'. Like a piano, a guitar right?
Why is it that a lot of you ( is it inherent to steel player ) say that you quickly outgrow 3 pedals and need at least 4 levers? Since, i don't play yet and never actually touched a psg (using a bit of insiders lingo here! ) im trying to figure out: the difference is it like a drummer who plays a 4 pcs and a drummer who has a 12 pcs kit including a tibetain splash he'll use once in his life or is the difference really fundamental like the difference between a diatonic or a chromatic instrument?
I know its a gross comparaison but im trying to understand
Sorry again for the english |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 4:55 pm
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I don't think you _need_ 4 knee levers now, or soon.
| Yanick Roy wrote: |
.. trying to figure out: the difference is it like a drummer who plays a 4 pcs and a drummer who has a 12 pcs kit including a tibetain splash he'll use once in his life or is the difference really fundamental like the difference between a diatonic or a chromatic instrument?
I know its a gross comparaison but im trying to understand
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The extra knee levers are more like the extra cymbal because the steel is fully chromatic without any knee levers.
(OK, I admit I have 2 single neck steels with 8 knee levers on E9 so I am a hypocrite.)
For an example of what is possible with no knee levers on an 8 string steel, listen to Jimmy Day's album "Steel and Strings".
That said, I recommend that you buy a Zum Encore, if you can. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 5:06 pm
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a copedent is how the pedals & levers are set up :
what they do harmonically & where they are situated
(in french : la configuration des pédales & des leviers)
usually student models have a set copedent that cannot be changed
whereas a pro or economy model copedent can be changed
3 pedals(or 4)& 4 levers(or 5) are the standard |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 5:42 pm
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If by "maintenance," you mean "tinker with" once you've learned to play it, I'll second the chorus saying MSA Classic or Dekley. Parts are easy to find (Fo'Bros Jim Palenscar, Tom Bradshaw and Michael Yahl all make reasonably priced well made parts), and they are easy to monkey with.
The only fully functional guitar of your list is the Stage One, and it's not tinker-friendly
And an MSA Classic will run used about what Doug will build you a Stage One for.
If you don't plan to tinker, then the Stage One is exactly what the doctor ordered. And they only need a SMALL amount of lube once a year
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 6:27 pm
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
I don't think you _need_ 4 knee levers now, or soon.
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Doug, you know that my admiration for you borders on divine worship, but with all due respect, I must disagree with you on this. The reason is that much of today's instruction material is written for guitars with at least 3 knee levers.
I remember when I first started playing on a borrowed Maverick, how I read about the E to F raise about 2 weeks after I began playing, and was frustrated about not the guitar not having it.
It may have taken years for the pioneers to discover the E-raise, but it only takes 30 seconds to read about it.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2013 6:31 pm
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| Start with a pro level guitar...........if you ever want to sell it .....you can. |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 25 Apr 2013 2:26 am
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used Stage Ones sell very very well
you can get 80 % of your $$$ back
ordering a new one might take a while since there's a waiting list |
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Yanick Roy
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 25 Apr 2013 2:59 am
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Again and again thanks to all of you.
If I sum up:
-Most of you strongly suggest 3p 4k
-Lots of love for the MSA classic and the Stage one (by the way are the Zumsteel and the licensed by Zumsteel equal quality?)
What about Fender Artist and other Fender 3p 4k? A few of them are available and not too expensive...
What about Fender 400? I read on the forum that a lot of the Bakerfield stuff (which I like) was done on them. Is it again a question of limitation? What about the built quality?
By maintenance I mean that finding a pedal steel tech around Montreal is as easy as finding a great skate sharpener for you guys in Tennessee, Texas, Arizona... So I need something built like a tank, with simple mecanics, something that won't need repairs or service too often or if worse comes to worse an easy guitar to fix myself (easy mecanism).
Again thank a lot to all of you (this site is going to get me fired!!! Im spending way too much time on it at work) |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 25 Apr 2013 3:15 am
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| Yanick Roy wrote: |
-Lots of love for the MSA classic
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With good reason. I happily played the green one shown in my avatar for 25 years, and replaced it with another, newer, MSA.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Howard Steinberg
From:
St. Petersburg, Florida , USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2013 3:19 am
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As others have said, 4 knee levers should be your minimum. One of the coolest aspects of playing steel is how it sucks you in as you learn. Once you can play something that sounds like music, you will find that you wan't to keep learning and will need a guitar that will allow for this. Even if it's a few years before you use the 3rd and 4th levers, you should have them.
There is a steel tech in the Bangor Maine area and you are within striking distance of steel guitars of canada. Good luck to you and enjoy.
_________________
Justice Pro Lite (4-5), Justice D-10 (8-5)x2 , Quilter Steelaire, Hilton Pedal, BJ's bar. |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2013 4:35 am
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| What you wanna do now will change once you learn to play just one song................you will be hooked for life. |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2013 5:27 am
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If you can get a Fender Artist for a good price, I'd grab it. It does have a distinctive, somewhat thinner tone than others, but a perfectly functional pro instrument. I have gigged with one and served me just fine.
Dan |
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