Sound, tone, timbre...whatever

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

When I was a teenager, all I heard was "Ford's better than Chevy", or "Chevy's better than Plymouth", or "Packard's better than Hudson". Now, as an old and almost retired musician, I hear the same (silly) arguments. "Sho~Bud's better than Mullen", or Emmons' is better than MSA", or "Bigsby's better than Fender". In my own mind, these are all "silly arguments". Let me elaborate a little, and show you how I come to this conclusion. I'll do it by making some facetious statements, and you'll get my drift...

There's no doubt that Chet would have died an unknown pauper if all he played was an Epiphone.

If Buddy Charleton had played a ZB, Tubb would have never hired him.

If the Ventures had played Rickenbackers, "Walk Don't Run" would never have made the charts.

If Buddy had cut the "Black Album" on a Mullen, nobody would have bought it.

If Tom Brumley had played a Marlen, Buck wouldn't have had a hit with "Together Again".

I guess by now, you see where I'm going with this. A lot of players have an affinity for a certain tone or sound. There's nothing wrong with that, really, as long as they realize that it's only important to them! Nobody gives a hoot what somebody else's guitar sounds like...as long as it sounds good. Now, you may consider the particular "sound" of your instrument to be very important, but time and time again, it's been proven that the vast majority of players (and almost no one who isn't a player), can't tell one from another. So why the fuss?

Now, here's the conclusion I've come to...

No one, not a single player of any instrument has ever gotten famous (or gotten rich) based on the "sound" of his instrument. It was the talent and skill of the player that made him/her rich, or famous, or memorable.

(Go back and read that last paragraph again.)

I guess the reason I posted this is that I'm beginning to think we're all turning into Emm-snobs, Sho~snobs, Car-Snobs, Sie-snobs, Mul-snobs, MSA-snobs, Fes-snobs, Fen-snobs, and Ana-snobs here on the Forum.

Whether it's guitars, setups, pedals, efx racks, speakers, or you name it...we all to often wind up wasting time and effort on meaningless, silly little arguments.

Sure, I've been guilty of it myself, once or twice. But don't y'all think this "Mine's better than yours" stuff gets a little boring after a while?

I'll close with this thought..."How well you play" is important, and "what you play" isn't.

Rex Thomas · From: Thompson's Station, TN

You forgot "Derb-snobs".

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Donny, I think your right to a great extent that its more the player than the axe. The interesting thing for me is that I've heard incredibly bad tone come from players with good guitars. I think mostly because of bad amp and effect settings and pickups. Also just bad amps. I think most all of todays guitars can be made to sound good with the right amp and settings. I also believe that some guitars do sound better than others, but in the final analysis variety is a good thing. Not everyone can like what I like. This was told to me by my grandfather. He said this was a good thing because then everyone would want my grandmother. Wonder what he meant by that?

Wayne Carver · From: Martinez, Georgia, USA

Most people that like a song or buy the record/cd other than real music lovers probably aren't sure why they even like it, much less that it even has steel/fiddle/mandolin on it. I doubt they even care who played steel or what kind of steel. I usually read the jacket and see who played what instruments and what the instruments were but I don't think most fans do this. I myself have liked a certain song but didn't know why.

Wayne Brown · From: Bassano, Alberta, Canada

oh oh here we go again....

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I'm kinda partial to that "Old Sho~Bud" sound.

I've been hired on a couple of jobs for my looks, but I'm not sure I'd try and base a "career" on them.

Some people have made it big out of pure spite.

Robert Thomas · From: Mehama, Oregon, USA

Hey Guys and Gals, I play 3 and 4 times a week. I play an HWP Mullen D-10. The people I play for don't know one brand of PSG from another, yet they appreciate everything I do, not because of what brand of PSG I play, but the music and the presentation that they can appreciate and relate to. Enough said, different strokes for different folks.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Kevin- You might have something there. It always helps if you got a very good amp and a very good speaker system.....al.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I think Donny is on to something here.

back then, the Black Album, Togethere Again etc...reflecting back we didn't have a lot to compare to. No real reference. Me I bought everything that even had a picture of a Steel player on it.

Nothing had really evolved yet..

IF you played a Telecaster back then, it meant you didn't have enough money for a Gibson or a Gretsch.. My first Tele was proof positive of that. If you played thru an old Fender amp like a Bassman you came under critisicm because it wasn't a Twin or a Showman or maybe even ..a KUSTOM !

Now that time has passed and we have all had the chance to grow up and mature with the music the musicians and our Instrument , we have drawn our lines in the sand. Chevy, Ford, Emmons, Sho-Bud..Peavey, Fender...whatever..

yes, Instruments sound different..but I contend that a good musician who understands the timbre of an Instrument will sound good regardless. A musician that can't hear tone ain't gonna sound good on any Instrument, even if it's the famous classic PP.

Me, I play a Carter, I like it just fine. I also play a Telecaster and I can put this in writing, well I guess I am anyway..

If I was lined up with 25 Tele players,or if 25 players played thru my rig..I would still sound different than them. I'm not saying they wouldn't sound good, I'm saying I would sound identifyable to my style.

I am not saying I am better than anyone else..I'm probably leagues worse..but I have been in many situations where other Tele players have asked me how I get my tone. All I have is my Tele and a Hot Rod Delux, no effects. Just me, my fingers , the Tele and the amp. The tone, well it's what my brain wants to hear and somehow I figured out thru the years how to make it happen, but it didn't happen overnight.

Tone starts upstairs in the cranial region, works its way down your head out to your arm down to your hands and fingers and the finality is approved by your ears. And we haven't even talked about the Instrument yet.

yes Instruments are different, and an important part of the total package but the player I still believe is the biggest factor.

just me

God Bless our Armed Forces and Military leaders.

tp

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

If having a preference for a partiqular instruments sound is snobbery, then most players are snobs.
If on the other hand a player gets HIS /HER sound on a particular instrument and likes the way it plays, then states as much, it is having a prefence and is only that.

Sho-Buds sound great, MSA Milleniums sound great.. but different. Tommy White wouldn't play one on the GOO if it didn't. But he owns both, I am told.
I am sure I could be happy with both..
In fact I hope to be!

Brad Burch · Posted 21 Mar 2003 6:10 am

There was a post on here somewhere where Ricky Davis stated he wanted to do some soundbites from a bunch of different guitars. I would love it if he or someone else would do that. I would very much appreciate the chance to hear the difference in tone from a group of steels side by side. I'm a pretty new at playing and have only had a chance to play a Shobud LDG, ZB, Push Pull S10, JCH, and a Marlen. They all had different feels, fits, and finishes but all pretty much sounded the same to me....sorry.

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

Maybe the bad tone guys don't have good ears or wouldn't know good tone from the garbage can. It could be in your ears more than your hands. Could it be we're just big kids claiming our stuff is better?

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

If a players thinks their stuff is the best, good for them. Either they have found the best stuff for them, or they will eventually change their mind and sing the same praises of other stuff in the future.

What bugs me is when they think they have to put down my stuff! My stuff is right for me.

The forrest would be a dull place if all the birds sounded alike.

John Cox · From: Texas, USA

Why don't we quit putting everyones stuff down and use that energy toward improveing
the steel if we all seem to know what works?

David Doggett · Posted 21 Mar 2003 8:50 am

Hey, Donny, lighten up. I'm sure most of us agree great players can sound great on anything, and vice versus. And we'd all probably be better off spending our time practicing and playing rather than arguing over equipment. But, well, I can't practice at work. But I can jump on the Forum from time to time and catch the discussions. As an amateur, it is a priceless privilege to hear all the discussions on equipment, theory, copedents and technique from pros and guys with years of experience and who have actually tried a lot of the equipment. It's not like you can walk in a music store just anywhere and find any of this stuff. And it seems that all pedal steels are to some extent mechanically quirky, compromised and imperfect. I wish all the manufacturers would pay attention to all the problems discussed on the Forum (some do and chime in from time to time). The pedal steel is still a work in progress before we get to the perfect instrument. I thought the new MSA might be getting close until Abraham Stokely and Carl Dixon laid into it on another current thread on the Forum.

And hey, Donny, wasn't that you I saw at the Maryland steel jam playing a new MSA (and a new Nashville 1000 as I remember)? Why'd you spring for the good stuff if it doesn't matter? Guys, he was complaining he wasn't use to the new MSA yet, but he played great and sounded great, and you could tell he would sound great on anything, just like he says.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Larry Miller · From: Dothan AL,USA

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

I have to agree with elements on both sides. I believe the player is what matters most, not what he's playing but, that said.......since Tony brought up "Tele players", and I know Tony is a big Tele fan...I also have a Tele I wouldn't trade for anything....On one hand I believe a great player would be great on anything, and Donny's tongue-in-cheek references to great steelers on instruments we know they didn't play aside....to take the other side for a second, I still find it hard to imagine some players without their trademark instruments, since they really were a big contributor to their sound.

Can you imagine Roy Buchanan, Danny Gatton or Don Rich on anything but a Tele?

How 'bout Dick Dale, The Ventures and Duane Eddy playing Gibson L-5's with big flatwound strings? Surf music would sound a bit different. Yes I know Duane Eddy played a hollowbody, a Gretsch 6120 first then his own Guild signature thin-line, and he sounded more "Duane Eddy" on the single-coiled DeArmond-pickupped Gretsch. How about Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel or Joe Pass with a Strat?

Sure they'd still be great players and no doubt still sound great, but they wouldn't be who they were... Maybe their style would have been different (most probably!) but we'd have still recognized them as great anyway and never would have known the styles they actually developed, which in fact are directly due at least in part to the tonal responses of their chosen instruments.

If this can be even partly true of a regular guitar (is it?), then could it possibly also relate to steel?

My 1-1/2 cents worth again...I remember the "my dad's Chevy's better than your dad's Ford" arguments too, and I agree it's stupid, just as stupid as "my Brand__ is better than your Brand___ pedal steel". BUT...I'll still say some brands and models are better for some players. A great instrument won't make any player great, but a player should play what he is most comfortable with, whatever instrument really sings to him, whatever sound/look/feel turns on the player, the one that really brings out the tones, sounds and emotions the player "hears in his head"; that's the best one for him no matter what make or model it is or what anyone else is playing. No one makes' SOUND is "better" than any others' EXCEPT for it's ability or lack of ability to tonally express that individual player's preferred sounds and elements of his personal style. For individual players, some instruments DO this BETTER than others.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 22 March 2003 at 04:52 PM.]

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

Players, instruments and amps sound different. A good player may be able to produce a fairly consistent sound on different instruments and amps, but when a great player sticks with a particular instrument, the combination creates a "signature" sound. The fact is, each of us -- great and [the rest of us] -- can find our own signature and feel good with it -- good enough to crow about it in a pretty juvenile way, sometimes, maybe, but that's just how good playing steel can make you feel!

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Bob Smith · From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA

Mr. Buchanan also played Les Paul guitars.

Joe Miraglia · From: Jamestown N.Y.

WHAT IS A STEEL GUITAR SUPPOSE TO SOUND LIKE
ANYWAY? When someone asks you what musical instrument you play, do you say a MSA or a pedal steel guitar? When a band runs an ad in the paper, does it read Emmons guitar player wanted? When was the last time someone came up to you and said they were looking for a Carter guitar player? OR "I'm sorry, I'm looking for a Mullen guitar player". Usually they ask if I can play the darn thing!!! Joe

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

I played for a famous local star in Germany called Hank Heaberle Jr.- the spetzle cowboy (spetzle being a some kind of pasta)about 10 years ago, and first thing he told me when I showed up on the gig was "the real guys play Emmons and Gibson" and I had a D-10 Excel and Washburn B-19 banjo.No need to say that his "country" music sucked a big time and no matter what I played wouldn`t help his band.We were interviewed by a local newspapers where the guy wrote "from the whole band only steel player and a lead guitar player knew what they were doing".I got fired after that,don`t know why???
And that was only time ever any of the bands I played with made ANY kind of comments on my gear,and I played Excel,Sho~Bud,Emmons,Sierra,MSA etc... and I loved them all.

[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 23 March 2003 at 06:17 PM.]

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

"in the ´70s Danny Gatton extensively used a heavily modified Gibson Les Paul Custom with three pickups";

"Mr. Buchanan also played Les Paul guitars."

So? And their first guitars were cigar boxes with broomhandle necks and wires from the backporch screen door for strings, and they sounded just as good on them, too!

Hendrix also played a Gibson Flying V, so does Eric Johnson on occassion and I'm sure they could do just about anything they wanted on any guitar, but the point still remains that the sound they are famous for, their "signature sound" was always identified with ONE particular instrument, and I don't have to tell anyone (but I will anyway) that was the Strat for Hendrix and Johnson and the Tele for the aforementioned... I'd never say they wouldn't be great on any good instrument, only that when a great player finds the type of instrument that really compliments and responds to the finer points of his style, it can bring out the best in him, whereas other equally great instruments having different tonal qualities may not enhance those characteristics, and result in a different sound and even lead a player to play in a different way, playing things that "work" and sound good with the tonal response of the instrument and avoiding things that don't. I maintain a great player would be great on any decent instrument, but that some instruments, the one(s) that really work with the player, such as Hendrix's Strat, the Tele in the hands of Buchanan, Gatton etc., the instrument can make a difference. I don't mean this makes Teles "better" than Les Pauls or whatever! Teles are better for some players, and Les Pauls are better for others, as I'm sure Emmonses are better for some steelers and MSA's, Carters and everything else are better for those who prefer them.

True most people can't hear any difference when a player switches instruments, even a lot of musicians can't, but the player himself can always tell the difference, and it affects the way he plays. Maybe that's the whole thing, right there.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 24 March 2003 at 03:27 AM.]

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