Remembering relative minor locations

Norman Boling · From: Paragould Arkansas, Philadelphia TN USA

Any tips/secrets?????

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

From no pedals, just add the A pedal
From AB, you can either switch to BC/use 1&7 instead of 4&8 OR (a much better answer, because of the scale possibilities) drop 2 frets and drop your Es.
From AF, go UP two frets and drop your Es.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Tommy Auldridge · From: Maryland, USA

One easy way to remenber the positions is like so...
From the no pedal position (whatever fret) the 2 minor can be had just by putting down the B&C pedals.
The 3 minor, by flating the E's with your knee lever. The 6 minor, with just the A pedal. That's one way. Of course, there's much more to be said on this. This is one way to get you started and make you think. Tommy......

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Key of C... Note: Minor tones (or chords) are in Bold.
Scale tones:.......C D E F G A B C
Numerical scale:. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

I find in the key of C, the minor most used is the A minor or 6 minor. I find the next most used minor is the E minor. And the remaining minor, the D minor.

Now to get to your question, how do you find them, or think of them in relation to the key position you are in? Why do I bother answering your question? When I answer your question, it reinforces that bit of knowledge in my own mind. So your actually teaching me... That's an important point.

Key of C, no pedal position... Fret 8, Strings 3,4,5,6,8,10, Normal grips.
A minor(Am or 6m)= Key position, A pedal only
E minor(Em or 3m)= Key position, E lever only
D minor(Dm or 2m)=Two frets back from key position, E lever only(Can also be found at the key position with B & C pedals engaged).

Key of C, pedals down position... Fret 3, Strings 3,4,5,6,8,10, Normal grips.
A minor(Am or 6m)=Two frets back from key position, E lever only(or at key position w/B&C pedals only)
E minor(Em or 3m)=Key position, A pedal only
D minor(Dm or 2m)=Two frets back, A pedal only

These are by no means, the only places to find. But this might be a pretty good place to start. IMO

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

My brother’s children live in California, but that’s probably not what you meant.
You’ve already received some very good advice above.

This topic reminds me of a Jeff Newman seminar I attended (about 15+ years ago).
One of the topics he covered was something like “Minors Don’t Exist”
He went on to explain and demonstrate how you can substitute select portions and particular pockets of what you would sometimes play for Major chords in a particular key and exchange them for when a Minor chord is called for.

Play a 1 for a 6
Play a 4 for a 2
Play a 5 for a 3
In the key of “C”
If it’s an Am chord – you can play it by substituting a “C” instead
If it’s a Dm chord – you can play it by substituting an “F” instead
If it’s an Em chord – you can play it by substituting a “G” instead

Obviously, there are other ways to approach what to play when a Minor chord is called for, and I’m not suggesting anyone always take this as the only & best way to play the pedal steel over Minor chords, but I think it was a legitimate first step & helped some people who were confused and having a difficult time incorporating Minor chords into their playing.

I also invite you to take a look at my website www.PedalSteelGuitarMusic.com
There are basic Major, Minor & 7th Scales and even plenty of Expanded Minor scales as well – all available free of charge as a PDF download to save or print out.
Let me know if you need any help in accessing or understanding these files.

-- Marc

Norman Boling · From: Paragould Arkansas, Philadelphia TN USA

For you help and answers

Norman Boling · From: Paragould Arkansas, Philadelphia TN USA

The sun's not up yet..

Craig Schwartz · From: McHenry IL

Hey Norm , I dont know much but the circle of fifths would be helpful
in understanding why these pros are telling us the nearest locations for 3 different minors,
I`m havin a tough memory lapse every time I sit at it to remember anything quickly
about the 3 different minor relatives or reversed as finding its only single relative major.... Whoa!

I feel your pain also

good luck
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SO MANY LURES, SO LITTLE TIME....

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

That's a good suggestion Tommy A. That's how I remember the minor positions. BTW, it was nice meeting you at the church last month.
This topic reminds me that ear training is another important aspect of learning any instrument. See if you can tell which minor is being played without having a guitar at hand.
Learn the "Nashville Number System" (not sure why Nashville gets the credit).
You chart out enough songs and you won't even need a guitar to figure them out after a while.

Stuart Legg · Posted 11 Mar 2013 1:56 pm

.....or you could put 1 b3 5 in a spreadsheet and know where the minor chords are in minuets.

Cal Sharp · From: the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN

John Scanlon · From: Jackson, Mississippi, USA

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

My original post has been corrected.

Stuart Legg · Posted 11 Mar 2013 11:42 pm

"Remembering relative minor locations"

The relative minor is a mode of the major with the same key signiture.

So you will find that minor at the up and down postitions of the major with the same key signiture.

Use your ear and pedals to find them there and pick harmony and single lines just like you are playing in that major key.
This is not the only places but the best places.

I'm sure someone said something simular to this here so I'm just saying. OK!

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

When I started I couldn't recall minor locations or remember them quick enough in a song.
I ended up adjusting a lever to make a minor chord with the 6th string lower...
This of course was a silly idea but it got me by for a short while because I was still thinking like a 6 string guitar player.
Root note marker or guide post.
On steel we quite regularly do not play the root note of a chord and leave that to the bass player.
If you want to think more like a steel player... learn and play 2 note harmonized scales you will find 2 note minor intervals all over.
Like in G for instance at the 3rd fret...1, 2m, 3m, 4 ,5, 6m ,7m, 8 = G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#m, G all at the 3rd fret is one way to look at it.

Jeff Newmans course Minor Connection sheds some light on the subject.
Funny thing is it is a very simple concept once you get it.... But until then it is like Chinese arithmetic.
It will come and be 2nd nature.

06 Maj. Scale 2 Notes.wma
https://www.box.com/s/nwvnh6lpgjdlqdotech7

07 Maj. Scale 8th & 5th String.wma
https://www.box.com/s/nxzfz8yvax66jy4dn16q
_________________
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Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

For every Major chord(triad) there is a relative minor chord that is found by raising the 5th note of that Major chord a whole tone. Raising that 5th note a whole tone will give you the Root of the relative minor chord.

Example 1
C chord, string 8 6 5 at 8th fret
C chords relative minor (Am) same fret, same strings, but this time with A pedal pressed (because it raises the 5th note in the voicing from G to A

Example 2
C chord, string 5 2 1 at 1st fret
C chords relative minor (Am) same fret, but play strings 5 2 3 because 3rd string is a whole tone higher than 1st string.

When one has found that in the key of C, the F, G and C chord is found at frets 1, 3 and 8 with no pedals or levers applied, one should also realize that the Dm, Em and Am are found on those same frets by using the A pedal.

Consider this and try understand why it is so.
Any minor 7th chord contains both the Major chord and its relative minor.
Example 3
Am7 = A C E G
C Major = C E G and its relative minor Am beeing the notes A C E
Now find the chords C, F and G w A+B pedals pressed and play strings 6 5 4 for all 3 chords.
Should be at frets 3, 8 and 10.
Then do the same w A+B pedals pressed but this time play strings 7 6 5 for their relative minors Am, Dm, Em at the same frets.

C Dm Em F G Am is 6 of the chords found in the key of C
Where is the Bdim, well I leave that to figure atm Rolling Eyes

Dont be satisfied with just finding the position for one particular chord.
One should always keep in mind that there would be some other chord before the one you just found the position for and there would also be another chord after the one you just played!!!!!

Memorizing/remembering has to be taken one step further (understanding) so you can free your mind and let the music speak.

B.Erlandsen

Jack Bowman · From: Washington, USA

WoW, before I came into this forum I was sure that Motorgrader operators and Carpenters were the most absolute technicians in the world. A thousand ways to do things but their own is most correct.....then I met and listened to you guys. I can learn something here! Thanks to all of those who feed our brains with PSG info!
_________________
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Godin A-6
Godan 5th Ave.
Fender 400 PSG 4+2
buncha amps

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Poor guy is trying to find a minor chord and gets bombed with weapons of mass information.
I recall the stage of mystification in finding minors on the fly.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Especially when he specifically asked for relative minors. A specific term with a specific meaning; the chord a minor third down from the major chord.
From no pedals, using same strings, add the A pedal (Say 3rd fret, takes you from G to Emin).

From A+F, go up two frets and drop your Es (Using G-Em, fret 6AF to 8D#).
From A+B, either switch to B&C (10AB-10BC), using string 7 instead of 8, or go DOWN two frets and drop your Es (10AB-8D#).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bob Cox · From: Buckeye State

Some times getting to the minor musically is very helpful for the singer to engage the note properly. There are slip or raise methods and each presents a different color of the music, and minor.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

While there are other approaches to minors, Lane's post just above is very concise and offers the info I believe the O.P. was looking for.
The trick is to train your ear and perception to which minor chords you are most likely to encounter in a progression.
Within the harmonized scale, any key, are three sets of related or relative major/minor chords. I and vi, IV and ii, and V and iii. Together they make up the whole harmonized scale, lacking just the 7mb5, or half diminished seventh (rarely in a country or blues progression, but a great sub for the V chord)
Notice that the relatives within any one key, are the relatives in other keys. (G and Em in G= I and vi, in D= IV and ii, in C= V and iii, and so on)

So, familiarizing yourself in practice with the sound and positions of the I, ii, iii, IV, V, and vi chords and how to move from one to other is the shortcut to doing it on the fly. When there's only one minor chord in a progression, it's usually the vi, when two are in order, often ascending or descending progression through the ii and iii, or alternating vi with ii. Classic country tunes frequently use the iv (minor), often after the more common IV (major). Every once in a while an oddball like the v (minor) sneaks in, and is so different in sound from the norm that they get easy to recognize, by the difference itself.

Like many folks, when I first started out, I'd be thinking in terms of the letter name chord progression- "Let's see, we're in G, this is an E minor coming up, so, um, E major is at open position, I need to slide up three frets and add the A pedal..." and of course, the chord's long gone by then. We don't actually play that way- songs occur in progressions, and that's how we need to think. The number system and learning to hear it on the fly is the key.
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Lane and Mark have covered the subject in a concise manner.

Learn the relative major/minors (shared key signature) - if you're playing pedals down at fret 3 you're playing in C. You're also in position to play in A minor and much of what falls under your fingers is appropriate to both.

I can lower my B strings and I have split-tune with my A pedal - but I'd never use that clumsy method to play a minor chord (eg: C to C minor at the 3rd by engaging the B-lower with both pedals down). Similarly I've never seen value in lowering the two G#s to G on a separate lever - there are already plenty of ways to find minor chords.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

One great minor on E9th is strings 9-7-5 (no pedals). I use it frequently, but rarely hear other players using it?

Stuart Legg · Posted 16 Mar 2013 12:31 pm

Since there are many, many places on the neck of a PSG where you can make a minor chord, I think more importantly the determining factor should be where is the place on the neck where that minor can be used for the best advantage for what you have in mind. Passing chord, substitution chord, arpeggio, adlib around it or hundreds of other ideas.

Bo Legg · Posted 16 Mar 2013 12:56 pm

Stuart why so many words when all you are saying is?
Be careful which bird you shoot or you might have buzzard for Thanksgiving.

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