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Topic: Old Sho-Bud Questions |
Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 5:45 pm |
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OK, I've gotten the bug, and gotten interested in old Sho-Buds. I've seen a few 12 strings, typically with 3 pedals and 4 knees for sale at times. Here is a pic of the cranks and rods I usually see:
I play Universal. So, first question is: can this system adapt to handle a typical Universal setup, such as a 7x5 like Jeff Newman's copedant? Changer is double raise, single lower.
Second question - what is the general thoughts/opinions on the functionality of this changer/pull rod setup? Does it stay in tune? Operate smoothly? Any issues?
Thanks for the help!
Doug
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 6:15 pm
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Two-hole pullers with nylon tuners...
If well adjusted, they play very smoothly and stay in tune. Not too sure about it being good for a universal tuning, since the changer is 2up/1down. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 6:47 pm
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If one of the two raise holes lines up in a straight line with the hole closer to the deck, couldn't you use barrels and turning rods, and have unlimited? If you could use those instead of nylon nuts, you could
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 6:51 pm
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Here is my current coped:
I think the issue would be string 4, which is raised a half step with LKL, and raised a full step with pedal 3, then also needs to be raised a 1/2 step again with pedal 5, but with the LKR engaged (so dropping a 1/2 step, then raising it back). So, this second 1/2-step raise would not come out exactly the same as the fisrt, presumably.
String 8 also has two different lowers, so that would not work.
So, I think I have answered my own question unless someone knows ways to work around the limits of the 2 up/1 down changer? Is this where barrels come into play?
Doug
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 6:59 pm
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Right. The tuning wrench spins the rod, and you can have as many barrels as you like on a rod.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 6:59 pm
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Lane, we must have been posting at the same time.
As for barrels, I've heard about them, seen pics, but do not exactly understand how they work. Anyone have a schematic or good explanation?
Skip - thanks for the info.
So, are these two-hole pullers the same ones that are used when people talk about two-hole pullers with barrels? Or are there different types of 2-hole pullers?
Thanks,
Doug
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 7:09 pm
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This picture shows the barrels.
The wrench spins the rod to tune the barrel, which is in two parts, one threaded and the other locked to the rod
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 8:50 pm
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A uni tuning is totally do-able with the barrels as discussed above. I wonder if you couldl loc-tite the nylon tuner on the 4th string raise rod firmly and use barrels on all raises. If the barrel spring pins catch against the 2 hole pullers (like they do on racks) , then the raises ould alll be tuned at the endplate.
I think Michael Yahl or James Moreland fabricate & sell barrels. |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 9:45 pm
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| As far as I know, the two-hole pullers are the same. |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 9:48 pm
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OK, I pulled up a pic of a guitar with 2-hole pullers and barrels and see that indeed, they are the same pullers.
Tony, I'm not sure I grasp the importance of the springs contacting the swivels that seat in the pullers (although I was reading on M. Yahl's sight about the need for the springs to protrude to contact the rack). Could you educate me some more?
So, if a string has more than 2 DIFFERENT raises (i.e., raised to a different note), or 1 DIFFERENT lower, I would use barrels. And would each change get a barrel? Or would the biggest change stay with the existing system, and the smaller change(s) would get the barrel? Or should I just switch it all out to barrels?
Keep the info coming. I've got a possible deal on a cheap 12-string Sho-bud, so trying to decide if it is worth the effort.
And a PS: the LKL2 in the above coped chart would not be on the Sho-Bud. That (plus a few others) are something on my Zum. The Bud would be a simple, fairly standard U-12 setup.
Thanks,
Doug
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 11:03 pm
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Unless someone makes tuning rods with a 3/16 nut, I'd change the whole guitar to barrels, because I would find it frustrating using 2 different branches to tune my guitar. That would drive me crazy, even if it is a short trip!
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2013 11:26 pm
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Looks like strings 4,5,6, and 8 would need to be converted to barrels behind 2 hole pullers.
Here are some pictures that may help.
the barrel somewhat extended (i.e. longer) showing the protruding bit of spring...
the barrel somewhat collapsed (i.e. shorter)
the barrel in place next to a 2 hole puller. When the pedal is engaged, the spring will catch on the edge of the puller, so that turning the raise or lower rod will shorten or lengthen the barrel.
two barrels on one rod.... for 5th string C# pull on pedals A and C
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 9 Mar 2013 2:38 am
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Thanks Mike - exactly what I needed to figure out how they work. When you live (at the moment, anyway - I will probably be returning to the other side of the marble in the next year) thousands of miles from the nearest Sho-Bud, or any other pedal steel other than your own, you kind of lack the ability to see how they differ from yours.
Lane - point well taken.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 9 Mar 2013 7:49 am
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Mike, thanks great photos. As I suspected the barrels will work. I think that either pullrod would allow endplate tunability:
1] OEM rack and barrel pull-rod w' socket-cap end, or a
2] modern pull-rod but with the nylon tuner fixed by adhesive, so the rod (and thus the barrels) turn rather than the nylon tuner.
Doug, nice looking guitar in your Avatar. Had one exaactly like it  |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 9 Mar 2013 8:25 am
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A great live & learn---I thought you always had to get underneath to tune barrels. Cool.
My experience was that it took some commitment to the guitar, just because I really sort of bonded with it and wanted to make it work.
The 2 hole swivel pullers are a bit sloppier than modern systems--perfectly consistent but with a bit of extra slack from the swivel disks.
And real estate is at a premium for adding pedals. You may have to move lever assemblies over to fit stuff in. Bud mechanicals are pretty simple in a 'what you see is what you get' sort of way but I found this to be a bit of an undertaking (very rewarding!) when I got my S-12 (6160) in need of major care and added a couple of levers--3 + 6 now with another pedal going on real soon.
Mine is a double/double changer, btw.
I have no regrets. But I did determine that of my several U-12 guitars, this would not be a true Uni--there is no way I will add enough pedals to make it happen. So it is an Ext. E9 of sorts with the open tuning of a Uni. |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 9 Mar 2013 8:42 am
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The only disadvantage to the 2 hole puller setup - and I don't think it's really a big deal - is you're not really able to time the pulls like you can on a modern guitar with multiple holes on the bell crank. For ex, on an Emmons with 14 hole bellcranks.
So, on a pull that moves two strings, the string that needs to travel the shorter distance will start it's movement a tad later than the other one.
Same thing with a rack and barrel system. It's not that big a thing...when the shooting starts, so to speak, it's barely noticeable. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 9 Mar 2013 8:51 am
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| Even with a few brand new pullers and swivels, I find that it creates one more point of mechanical movement that requires a little play so as to not bind. So the swivel rocks a bit before it swivels. Not a big deal but one more bit of slack, compared with more linear pull trains such as my Carter or Fess. Not an argument. Just an observation---a bit of engineering compromise we choose to live with in an old horn. |
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