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Topic: Chord-Theory Thread? |
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 15 Jan 2013 2:11 pm |
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Sometime in 2012 there appeared on the Forum a thread that was pretty deep into chord theory, that illustrated how one could start from a particular chord (was it a Dim7?) and, by changing one note at a time, derive loads of other chords. I made a mental note to come back to that thread sometime in the future when I had time to digest it... but now I can't find it!
Anyone out there have a clue what I'm talking about? (Me neither...)
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Bill McCloskey
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Posted 15 Jan 2013 2:47 pm
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Jim,
I don't know if this is correct or not but I may have started a thread a while ago on using diminshed chords to create 7ths.
If you take any diminished chord and lower any one note a half tone, you get a 7th chord. All 3 diminished chords can generate all the 7ths that way.
for instance, the diminished chord C Eb Gb A generates;
B7 (B Eb Gb A)
D7 (D F# A C)
F7 (F A C Eb)
Ab7 (Ab C Eb Gb) |
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Sid Hudson
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2013 3:04 pm
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Jimbo,
This is Pat Martino's approach. He has a video where he goes in depth on this very thing.
I have the video but the name of the video escapes me. If you need the name I will dig it out.
Sid |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2013 3:44 pm
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That idea is the foundation of the Barry Harris school. A lot of his students have expanded on it and a few guitar players have developed a methodology.
Barry is a legend with this kind of harmonic approach - I think he developed much of it in the late 50s -
if you check out the theoritical concepts section it gives an overview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Harris
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 5:24 am
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Barry Harris is a national treasure. I have learned so much from him, probably more than any other jazz educator, and I never attended any of his workshops.
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John Alexander
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 9:49 am
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| Jim - I have sent you an email with an article about Pat Martino's concepts, to your address provided in the "contact me" section of jimcohen.com. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 10:02 am
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Received, John. Many thanks. That looks great. I see in addition to the Dim7 being viewed as a "parent" chord form, so also is the Aug triad. I've just started reading it and look forward to working through it with axe in hand. 
Thanks for the tip on Barry Harris, too, guys. Will need to look into him too.
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 4:10 pm
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Just finished reading the Guitar Player article. It starts out well enough, showing how lowering one note in an Aug triad or in a Dim7 chord yields another major triad or dominant chord. Cool so far. Unfortunately, the article kind of abandons ship at that point, telling the reader basically to "start thinking like Pat Martino" and then jumps to a blistering chromatic line without any commentary of whether (or even if) it bears any correspondence to the chord theory in the rest of the article. Too bad, but thanks for sending it, John, as the first part was very well written. Now, I'll go back and read the Forum threads and also start looking at Barry Harris' stuff.
Thanks again to all.
Jim
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 4:24 pm
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Jim - that Harris "method" will open your eyes and ears to so much "ah, so that's what is going on"
I havent spent the time on it I should - its a bit of reprogramming from the established academic methods, (which never worked all that effectively for me...ie, it still didn't sound like what I was hearing the heavies play) but he really de-mystifies the bop language...and he does refer to it just like a language. It seems heavy at first but if I can grasp its concepts, anyone can.
I need to get back on that...
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Sid Hudson
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 4:39 pm
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| Say it again Jim |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 5:14 pm
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My all-time favorite music book, besides maybe the classical fake book, is Paul F. Berliner's "Thinking in Jazz." He ties specific musical examples to interviews with the musicians who's thought processes led to the examples - knowing the "why" of things makes re-application of the idea elsewhere a lot easier, for me. As I was reading it, it seemed as though he was practically mining Harris's turf, because so many of the musicians he interviewed had been through Harris's program. It was written in 1994, and I don't know when and how much of Harris's material was explained or for sale at that time. Berliner was obviously a student and Harris was cooperating, it wasn't like stealing.
Depending on your own methods, just reading some examples might not have the same force as being in the classes, as Harris clearly like to set up "music games" and puzzles in which the students would compete for the pat on the head. His method of pushing for individual solutions seemed designed to avoid the dread 1990's all-the-Berklee-graduates-sound-alike syndrome which they have thankfully also addressed.
P.S. This little nugget goes right to the heart of things ->
http://jazzworkshops.com/articles/diminished-dimensions
| Quote: |
| ... you can see how to create each of the four related dominant seventh chords by lowering each of the notes of the Ddim7 by a half-step; the lowered note is the root of the new dominant seventh chord. |
There's a few month's full-time work right there, if your brain works like that. More like three years of occasional twitches for me.
Last edited by David Mason on 16 Jan 2013 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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William Lake
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 5:19 pm
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Another fine jazz guitarist who uses the Barry Harris method is Roni Ben-Hur. He has a book called Talk Jazz Guitar which he says is based on the Barry Harris Method.
I have the book/CD but have not spent much time on it yet. Still working on Herb Ellis. |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 5:32 pm
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Jim, it's been a few years, so maybe Mike Neer can chime in. Like others have said, his methods have be re- gested in many forms by his previous students - and I think most of what's out there is not under his name, but shows up nearly everywhere in the more serious jazz studies.
I actually got his workshop DVD, but that's not really necessary...it's a workshop format more than anything - but the manual with it is awesome.
There is lots of discussion and the rudiments of it available online for free if you dig thru enough stuff.
The guitar books by Ben Hur and Kingman are great if you play guitar. Ben Hur deals with the soloing and Kingman with the chordal stuff. But I don't know how that will transfer over to steel - I never tried it.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 16 Jan 2013 5:43 pm
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I have the Talk Jazz Guitar book and also Barry's Workshop DVD Vol. 2. The DVDs are really excellent stuff, and the book is not bad, either. The Talk Jazz book just basically lays out a bunch of rules for the application of the scales. I practice this stuff, but as Barry says, "Practice playing music, not practicing."
I have 2 friends who have been part of Barry's choir for many years. They have been egging me on to come for a long time, as I get older, it's harder and harder to get me out of my routines.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Chris Gabriel
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2013 10:47 am Go...
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I was fortunate to receive an invitation to a Barry Harris workshop here in Portland, Oregon. I went. It was extremely rewarding. If you get a chance, go.
Since no one has metioned it yet on this thread, I will:
The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar
by Alan Kingstone
It's for guitar, but I believe the concepts are transferable to steel guitar, and the 6 tunings in particular. It's a worthy investment, for sure!
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Buck Reid
From:
Nashville,TN
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Posted 1 Mar 2013 2:18 pm
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The video that Sid speaks of is Pat Martino's "Creative Force" (part 1).
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www.BuckReid.com |
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