Jamming with sus4

Bo Legg · Posted 25 Feb 2013 8:46 pm

We were jamming the other nite trying to jazz up some of them old 3 chord country songs without changing the beat.

I tried a little quartal harmony and that was a laugher.
However I did use a compromise on the quartal harmony and just throw in a lot of sus4 and sus9 and that seemed to work pretty well.

I’ve been aware of the uses of sus chords but I didn’t make the connection with country music until I start forcing the sus chords into the song.
I notice the sus4 and sus9 used a lot in country rhythm guitar
The logic of it is that for instance in the Key of A the “Asus4” chord at the 5th fret is also a “Dsus9” and an “E7sus4”. Wow my 3 chords!

So at the 5th fret the standard 3 4 5 6 8 10 string with the B pedal down is an Asus4, Dsus9 and E7sus4
The sus chord needs to resolve and here it does and blends seamlessly into the A, D, and E7 chord if you are trying to speed pick in one position.

You can almost play that sus chord with the B pedal down at any fret and resolve it to a usable chord in the key you have chosen.

Just for an example you could apply it to a Blues (which a lot of old country song are) progression in this manor.

All at the 5th fret /A= no pedals /D=A&B pedal /E7=B pedal & E kneel lever / sus chords =B pedal/
Play A and then the sus chord for the first bar and then play D and then the sus chord for the 2nd bar and so on. In this manor

/A, sus/D, sus/ A, sus/ A, sus/
/D, sus/ D, sus/ A, sus/ A, sus/
/E7, sus/ D, sus/ A,sus/ turn

I didn’t have time to tab it so I borrowed this ending from Stuart’s notes that shows a little of what I’m referring to

Michael Barone · From: Downingtown, Pennsylvania

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Feb 2013 8:19 am

Maybe I could nit pick Steely Dan and say his 4 note chord 1 3 5 9 is really an “add 9” not a “sus9 “

As guitar and steel players most of us I believe use what is commonly excepted (sus chord) as a chord in which the (major or minor) third is omitted, replaced usually with either a perfect fourth (sus4) or a major second (sus2 ) or as commonly referred to (sus9).

It would be nit picking if I suggested to guitar or Steel player they couldn’t call their chord a 13th because they didn't play the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 11th with the 13th. It’s just not possible nor practical most of the time.

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Bo Legg -

I'll support your last statement with a comment or two.

Every copedant is a compromise with severe limitations. As such, and most often, we end up playing what I call "chord fragments". A chord is "implied" while not actually performed. One would seemingly have to have 88 strings - akin to the piano - in order to satisfy the strict requirements in naming a chord. But, then, you'd have to be Edward Scissorhands in order to play it.

Any bass player who hangs out on the root and fifth is boring. Really boring. And yet, many ascribe to the notion that the bass player WILL play the root note, thus giving concrete credence to the chord. Once again, boring.

Country music is replete with consonance. It's roots have firmly dictated this. On the other hand, dissonance forces, more firmly, the necessity to resolve a given chord as opposed to a garden variety 7th resolving to it's 4 chord.

Whether one is speaking of a sus2 or sus4 chord is immaterial. The 2 or 4 is akin to the flatted 7th in that it is a passing tone into the next chord. Where one uses such extensions is simply a question of taste in the context of the tune.

The major impediment to the implementation of chord extensions is the inbred belief that something has "always" been done in a certain fashion and, thus, should not be changed or altered.

Balderdash! Dissonance is a wonderful sonic technique and one which I, personally, would like to see more of. I ain't holdin' my breath.

Richard

Bill Mayville · From: Las Vegas Nevada * R.I.P.

Just talking about the sus4 .
I also use them quite often.
What chords in any Key do U use for the 4th ?
I will ask as a friend.
Bill
_________________
Bill Mayville
06 Jackson Commemorative ,S 10
Black.For Sale . $18,000 Kidding

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Feb 2013 9:55 am

Richard dessonance is one of my favorite things. I love doing this to a chord cycle.

Stuart Legg · Posted 26 Feb 2013 10:17 am

Speaking of dissonance, along the same line here is a good turn for the last 2 bars of a 12 bar blues chorus.

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Feb 2013 10:54 am **Re: Hi Bo**

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I spent a fair amount of time learning the Police songs that every bar-band guitarist needs*, and those boys were nuts! Andy Summers just about never played anything straight, and they often had or implied at least a couple of interlocking rhythm bits, too. Like, they were using all the stuff jazz musicians learn but then don't play... surprising they ever made it on the radio! I did hear that when they did the reunion tour, they didn't do much rehearsing first (we're all so great) and had some pretty horrific moments when the polyrhythms and polytonality kinda took off on 'em.

*(for about five minutes a few decades back... Winking

)

Michael Barone · From: Downingtown, Pennsylvania

I apologize if I was considered nitpicking. I was merely expressing my interpretation of the written differences, sonically viewing both equally.

In following Stuart's tab, (and Bo’s topic), I often use a similar turnaround where I stack a quartal on top of the V, making it a V7+9+5 (or V7+9+12). Particularly, I find it very effective in resolving to a minor. Adding one more 4th includes the dim 9th (or -17) in this case. I have done this on occasion on keyboard.

As you know, the E9th copedent accommodates stacked 4ths very well, at a lot of places on the fretboard. Quartal chords can be fun to use, including chromatically, and other horizontal methods, when you know where the bass player (and everybody else) is going. Keyboardists have been doing this for years. Obviously, on steel, it is way easier to maneuver this technique chromatically at speed than on a keyboard.

Mike

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Feb 2013 12:50 pm

Sorry Michael no apology necessary you were not at fault in any way. I had a chip on my shoulder left over from the last topic I joined in on and I took it out on you.
Nit picking was a poor choice of words on my part. You sound very knowledgeable on the subject and I appreciate your input.

I would very much like to hear more on your use of Quartal harmony. I haven't found it to be that easy on my E9. Maybe I need more pedals and levers.

Stuart Legg · Posted 26 Feb 2013 2:23 pm

Example of playing the sus4 chords built on each note in the major scale.
Here is a few bars of it in D.

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Bo Legg -

I don't want to beat this to death but a couple of things stood out when I viewed your cycle of fourths progression.

It is loosely akin to the ubiquitous - and well-worn IIIm7, IIIb7, IIm7, IIb7, I turnaround. With at least a couple of iterations, it is something which all players should know but apparently don't.

In looking at your progression, it occurs to me that what you're calling the (F#)7#9 is a tritone substitution for a form of C7th chord. Ditto with the E7#9. It is the tritone substitution for a form of Bb7 chord. In this sequence, the root notes could be named C#, C, B, and Bb - the same descending roots as indicated in the turnaround I cited above. The names of the C and Bb chords would have to be changed but that is purely academic.

Nuthin' like a potfull of variety to spice things up!

OH! Why do steelers play everything in # keys? I grew up with a bunch of horn players who would give you a finger or two or three "down" in order to indicate the key. Them sharps is strange. Must be those "country" chords in the first three frets on guitar.

Richard

Michael Barone · From: Downingtown, Pennsylvania

Bo, the first step for me in learning about quartal chords and melody was to dissect and learn “Freedom Jazz Dance”. There is a variety on Youtube. I learned it on keyboard some years ago. I am not able to play it on steel yet. The only steel player I know to present Freedom Jazz Dance here is Mike Neer, who has it on his Soundcloud page. Others steelers may have recorded it of which I am not aware (Buddy maybe?) From this song you can learn about Eddie Harris’ thinking regarding the use of 4th and 5th intervals in the melody, as well as quartals. As a keyboardist, I also got some quartal ideas from (notably) McCoy Tyner and some others.

I have a very brief example of using descending quartal chord runs on piano and on E9 in one of my original arrangements. If you would like I will try to write and post the tab and music for these brief segments.

Mike

Bo Legg · Posted 27 Feb 2013 6:37 pm

Richard good thinking, could be that but this was my intent.

Stuart Legg · Posted 27 Feb 2013 10:18 pm

Below is the simplest Quartal Harmony scale wise that I’ve found on the E9 neck.
As I discovered in adlibbing with sus4 chord arpeggios you can substitute a sus4 with the root of each and every note in the major scale of the your chosen key.
You can also play the Locrian mode arpeggio over each and every mode. If you want to add a little what the heck was that to your single line solos.
I found the arpeggio should consist of the 1 b3 b5 b7 of the Locrian mode. It works well if you weave in an out of the modes of each chord in the progession
I show below the A chord ( Ionian) arpeggio, play a G#m7b5 (Locrian) arpeggio over the A chord.
Next is the natural A minor (Aeolian) of which the Locrian mode arpeggio would be Bm7b5.
Next the Mixolydian mode A7 and the Locrian arpeggio of that would be a C#m7b5
Next the Dorian mode Am of which the Locrian arpeggio of that would be F#m7b5.
This will give you a reference point to figure out where all the Locrian arpeggios Relate

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Stuart -

This is not nit-picking but, rather, a cautionary note to the reader.

In order to properly harmonize a scale using quartal harmony, augmented fourths are a necessity. Perfect fourths just don't hack it. Your's is OK.

Richard

Michael Barone · From: Downingtown, Pennsylvania

Stuart, I found that your applications are interesting. I learned an important concept here. The mathematical methodology you used may be different than mine but the results are congruent.

In the recorded example I am offering here, the chords on steel are descending with accompaniment by a string section ascending R-m3-4, where the root progresses upward a 4th at a time.

Key of Cm, I show below the tab how the tension builds descending. The 11th fret is picked once.
This is my first attempt at tab. please correct if needed.

Stuart Legg · Posted 1 Mar 2013 3:43 am

Michael It sounds good.
I'm just looking and hearing it in my head but I hear the last chord from high to low a 5 9 b6 chord or a (11) 1 5 for the (aug11) b9 aug5 you have listed. I also asumed you meant b7 for the 7s.

I hope you don't think I'm nit picking. I'm sure you just entered that last chord wrong on your tab or I'm just not hearing what I think I hear.

Anyway sounds like a good run you could even throw into that old country song Kaw-Liga and get some attention.

Stuart Legg · Posted 1 Mar 2013 4:04 am

Richard maybe I missed that in my theory studies but in my Major scale of quartal harmony I didn’t find an aug 11. So I must have missed something very important or I‘m not understanding what you are saying..

My connection of sus4 and quartal harmony is using the inversion of the sus4 which is a sus9 over a major penta scale built on the 5th of key root.
In other words I would play a E maj penta scale of sus9s over an A maj quartal scale wise chord progression.

If I were just playing the major chord wise scale (not quartal) I would use the sus4 built on the Amaj penta scale.

When I say I play I'm speaking of playing what I hear in my mind and I would be playing if I could.

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Stuart -

We may have a problem with semantics. I was not referring to an "augmented 11", but, rather the interval between notes - i.e., either a perfect fourth or an augmented fourth. In your standard notation, there are three instances where an augmented fourth is indicated and necessary. In the 3rd group of 8th notes there is an interval of G-C#. An augmented fourth. In the 6th group of 8th notes there is an interval of C-F#. An augmented fourth. In the 7th group of 8th notes there is an interval D-G#. An augmented fourth.

There are instances where perfect fourths provide appropriate harmony. There are also instances where an "augmented fourth" is required. Both are perfectly valid depending upon the harmonic circumstance in which one finds oneself. Both fall under the umbrella of quartal harmony.

Didn't mean to confuse the issue.

Richard

Ga McDonnell · From: N GA, USA

"...In order to properly harmonize a scale using quartal harmony, augmented fourths are a necessity. Perfect fourths just don't hack it......"

Can't really understand that one and I was doing this stuff thirty years ago when it was hot. (Now it's not so hot).

Stuart would make it easier if he put the key signature at the beginning of his examples. His example in the key of A would be simpler to interpret if he just put the three sharps at the beginning.

On E9 there's lots four and five note chords available which give a big chord jazz sound. The 9th string ( lowered to C#) can be added. Also lowering the 10th to G# works.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Ga McDonnell · From: N GA, USA

Semantics again I guess. My interpretation of the quote was that the standard 4th was unacceptable and needed to be augmented to be right. Obviously augmented 4th are used in quartal, especially as +11ths.

Yeah, I know McCoy Tyner. Was probably listening to him before you were out of diapers.

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