If you were to play amp-less?

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

What's the hottest, latest and greatest processor with amp simulation on the market that's good for Live Steel work.

I Play 7 piece with huge P.A and sound man, [no amps whatsoever on stage] have been using Pod Xt for 8 years with great rewards, compliments, and reliability but ears are always open for new things... MUST HAVE AMP SIM.
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A.K.A Chappy.

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

Amp sim is good, but for a steel you rarely need something like a Soldano Head simulation geared towards overdrive. What you encounter in real life is something like a broad-band amplifier, such as a Bassman or even Twin Reverb stage at low gain - no overdrive.

What you really need is a speaker simulation because this is the last filter your acoustical chain encounters. If you go into the P.A. without, it will sound awfully shrill.

The problem is, that most of the guitar oriented gear is tailored to the needs of guitar slingers with their Celestions and all that, which may not suit a steel guitarist, however, it is better than nothing.

Some analog DI boxes are available (Sansamp) that encorporate amp emulations, don´t know if they have speaker simulations, but you will be far better of using a digital device such as the Digitech RP processors, that have a lot of faithful models inside.

I successfully used those for steel on a P.A., you may still have to tone down the treble on the P.A. channel.

Nevertheless the tone vastly depends on the P.A., cheap systems tend to sound brittle quickly.

Having a P.A. at hand (and somebody that wheels it) has some undeniable advantages, however I found that I still use a small speaker as monitor because the P.A. system is what it says: Public Address system, it may not create the soundscape you need to hear yourself properly.

-helmut
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I recently played a couple gigs using a SansAmp Blonde to go direct into the PA. I did this because both my Session 400s were out of commission, plus I wanted to give it a try. The soundman was very experienced and the house PA was very adequate (The Saddlerack in Fremont, CA).

The outcome was it sounded semi-reasonable, but not quite right all night long, both times I tried it. The longer I played, the more I missed my regular steel amp. The steel when played direct was harsh. The highs were not nearly as smooth and buttery as with a steel amp. And if I turned down the highs, the steel was muddy.

I greatly prefer the sound of the steel through a Session 400, or other good steel amp. The soundman immediately noticed the difference when I got the Session back. He said it sounded much better. Plus, it was certainly a lot more fun playing with a real steel amp.

Perhaps with a better preamp I might like the convenience of playing direct, but for now I'll keep carrying a steel amp.

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

The sansamp or whatever emulator might do a good job - the PA may throw this all over again.

Every amp/speaker/listener combination is a unique unity. Amps respond to transients differently, speakers respond in their own way and, most of all, the human ear/brain combination (perceiption) is highly variable.

Place your listening position right in front of the speaker and then 30 degrees aside and bang, your treble is gone. Listen to it after two glasses of wine and bang, treble and bass are gone. Very Happy

Emulations will always just be so-so, but for a rehearsal at low sound level, I appreciate the reduced gear to carry.

-helmut
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Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

I've heard that the Kemper is the best out there. It comes with several amps profiled but the cool thing is you can profile ANY amp with it. From what I've read & heard it's the most real sounding simulation available. A guy I've talked to who owns some high end amps is selling them because he says after profiling them with his Kemper he can't tell the difference. It has (as I understand) several options for speaker simulation and more can be added. You can go direct to PA, through a power amp, or digital out for direct recording. Here's a link to their site. http://kemper-amps.com/page/render/lang/en/p/184/do/Kemper_Profiling_Amplifier___KPA___Guitar_Amplification_Redefined.html

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

I forgot to mention the Kemper is pricey. I've seen a couple of used on Ebay for over $1600. Also remember it's not an "amplifier" but a front end to go through an amp or PA or recorder. I'm a little put off by the plastic knobs and design for it being so expensive. Really a lot more amps than I need at this time but if I were going mostly just through a PA I'd sure look at it.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Craig Schwartz · From: McHenry IL

I dont know the difference but I`ve been using Pod HD desktop through a new XR8600D peavey power mixer and 2= 112-PT 16 ohm PA speakers from the 70`s that accept 100 watts each, and Its been good, I often wonder if newer PA speakers would make it sound even better
Note* I dont leave home without the freeloader. It acts more to me like a really nice tone controller in an instant. And of course the pod has a tweak knob I greatly appreciate.
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SO MANY LURES, SO LITTLE TIME....

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

Most of the reviews I've read about the Kemper (reviews, forums, etc,)are by people that are very familiar with and have used all the "modeling" devices. The other high dollar one that it is compared to is that Fractal AXEII or whatever and the Kemper seems to have it beat hands down. These are apparently in a whole other league from the POD stuff (which I like a lot). Technology keeps moving on. Anyway Larry asked "What's the hottest latest & greatest....". From what I've heard the Kemper is it. This is all hearsay though because I havn't actually heard or compared myself. If you read about the tech behind this it's facinating. Careful, it could give you bad GAS! (gear acquisition syndrom).

Gary Patterson · From: Gallatin, TN

I haven't tried it with steel, but several guys at church(including myself) have used the Roland Micro Cube in this mode: Altho it's an amp with a speaker, if you plug the headphone jack to the board, you kill the speaker and get a suitable signal to the PA. Our most "fussy" guitar player prefers this to using a POD. The Micro Cube is small enough to not be in the way on stage, and easy to carry, of course.

Ford Cole · From: Texas

Has anybody tried the Revelation Pre in this application?

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Thanks fellow's i really appreciate your detailed and professional responses. Let me say... I don't prefer to be amp-less, it's a rule we have set by our band leader who i have worked for, for many years. It's all tones out front and no noise on stage in aid of vocal quality. Powerful P.A and superb educated Sound man. He don't like amp noise shotguning either, he's so picky but that's what he get's paid to do. Very Happy

Everybody is [in ears] except me, i run a JBL powered wedge.

The pod's sound great out front and one time i did bring the amp out and record and there was almost little difference to my ears. It's just a bit brittle sometimes and there is just that thicker quality that an amp can give with a 15 inch. A Nashville 400 Emulation amp and speaker would be nice from Line 6.
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A.K.A Chappy.

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

Here's a 40min video of someone going through a bunch of profiles on the Kemper. 98.7% of it sounds like crap to me but then so did the POD. The point I guess is that someone that really knows the particular amp (at a particular setting) by all reports hears it as identical & it translates very well into the board or through a power amp & speakers if they are pretty nuetral eq. I think most steel players aren't into the ultra-gain thing so much but quality of tone. I'm waiting to hear a great steeler run it through it's paces. This is a little different than what we've come to know as "amp modeling" I think. The possibilities are obvious. Play one tune through a Bassman w/4 10s, the next through a Web, the next through my Rev, scream through a Dumble, & on & on. You can set up banks & sets for the gig. Welcome to the future. I'm still not going to buy one though. Never. Oh yeah here's that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxd8KDNpM1E&feature=player_embedded#!

mtulbert · From: Plano, Texas 75023

I run my Rev Pre Amp into the PA board with great results.

Here are a couple of YouTube Videos that we did recently. Rev into Board and then recorded to Pro Tools. There is a little of the live ambience mixed into this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8vQI6SX64U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k6Dkazg_9w
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Mark T

Infinity D-10 Justice SD-10 Judge Revelation Octal Preamp, Fractal AXE III, Fender FRFR 12

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

The only thing about not using an amp on stage is you're totally at the mercy of the soundguy
and whatever type of monitor system that happens to be available.
You can have the best preamp out there and if the monitors ain't happening, it's no fun.
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Straight Ahead 500 watt mini~power amp

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

I played a a TV studio concert taping yesterday and they had a state-of-the art PA and monitors.
Blonde-delay-reverb-DI. I didn`t miss my amp at all. Perfect. Sounded just like my Deluxe reverb with a JBL D120 F Smile

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Olli Haavisto
Finland

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Jay has a great point...However in my situation it's the same rig and sound man everytime, in those occasional situation's where i play in another group, i do lug an amp around, to my back's dis-comfort, but to the pleasure of my ears. Very Happy

Olli...No processor, amp/speakers sim??

Thanks scott and mt, i'll check it out in a few moments.
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A.K.A Chappy.

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

Looked into the Kemper stuff intensively.

This device does a great job in digitally capturing the linear and non-linear behaviour of (tube) amps and the associated cab. They create what they call a "profile" of a real amp with a built-in process.

Time based effects like delay, reverb, chorus etc. can´t be profiled by definition, so those effects appear to be models just as their competitors make them. The quality seems to be high, but a limited choice.

It appears to me that such a device is predominantly destined to guitar players that frequently want to play distorted on a boutique amp.

The question arises, for a steel player, what is needed? Echo, reverb, and occationally other exotics. Mostly a clean amp is requested with a good speaker. The speakers needed would yet to be profiled. The amp can IMHO for all practical means be viewed transparent.

Does such a system pay if you, on the end of the day, just want a decent speaker emulator?
Probably not. Many other modellers may do that already.

What none of them have yet incorporated is a decent volume pedal that is detatchable and non contact, which would be the end of all pot pedals, and very likely all other high line volume pedals.

If you decided to go digital, the Digitech RP series has a volume pedal, unfortunately this is not detachable so no option for a pedal player.

I am sure there will be alot of activity in the near future on that. Time will tell.

-helmut
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Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Thanks Helmut, that's a very intense and knowledgeable study you did for us. We steel players need a Nashville 400 in simulator form, just like all the other amp profile's out there... Like you said; Everything is geared around selling to the masses of 6 string players. The pod XT seems hard to beat.
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A.K.A Chappy.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Thanks men....Blonde reverb Di? I googled it, What is it?
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A.K.A Chappy.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

....which is fed into a DI box that goes to your PA mixer. Two seperate units.

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Fractal Ultra EFX 2

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

(Wish I had them all, but I have none...)

I read a lot of reviews. People say the Kemper comes closest to a real amp. You go and you turn the thing on and you play like on a real amp.

The Fractal they say sounds a bit more artificial than the Kemper, but the Kemper falls short for effects versatility. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the effects are good, but limited.

The Kemper uses a proprietary, patented process to emulate a tube-amp, but since time-based effects can´t be captured with it, they are emulations like all others do it, albeit good ones.

The Axe Fx on the contrary, uses ALL modelling procedures, meaning that they have mathematical models for every component inside an amp. Naturally, a concept of the interaction thereof must be limited. However, for those willing to tinker with curious effects, the Axe is theirs.
The Kemper inclusive 600W amp is less expensive than the Axe FX2.

View it this way. If you were a guitar slinger and if you wanted a really good vintage amplifier setup which was unbelievably expensive or, indeed, not avaiable, you would get the Kemper for a fraction of the price and hundreds of other amps into the bargain.

If you want FX over FX, you probably want the Axe.

Note: none of them comes with a footcontroller, both are rackmount units.

If you were a steel player and not coincidentally one of the above (except you were rich and don´t care...) then you probably were better off with something like Line6 Pod500HD, which people say is by matters of sonic quality, the next step (downwards) and a stand alone floor unit.

have fun,

-helmut
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru

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