U-12 vs D-10: you have the notes, but "the sound"?

Al Carey · From: Dublin, NH USA

I've been really thinking a Uni might be the guitar for me. I love the idea of having, in effect, both necks in one.

But when I play the E9 neck in "C6 mode"(E's lowered), it's not very satisfying. I suppose it's the string gauges more than anything, but my C6 neck sounds beefy and thick, while the same notes on the E9 neck sound thin and, well, like an E9 steel.

EQ on the amp/matchbox will only take me so far, and since a U12 uses the same string gauges on the top strings, I'm going to have the same experience, no?
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Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc...

Dave O'Brien · From: Florida and New Jersey

go hear "Cowboy" Eddie Long or Joe Wright and you'll have your answer.
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Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband

Niels Andrews · From: Salinas, California, USA

Go read the article by Reece Anderson about the testing he did at MSA and then listen to him play and I will bet you can't tell what guitar he is playing. As has been discussed many times in this forum, tone is more the player than the instrument. As they say "Just Do it!"
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Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

There are advantages and there are disadvantages.
String gauges are different and there is less tension in the strings.
At first it will seem different and after a while it feels natural.
In the end you will sound like yourself.
When I pack my Emmons U-12 into the split cases there is no question in my mind.
Switching to Universal is a big leap and you are largely on your own same as starting out on PSG.
That is why I made the video I did regarding U-12.
PSG is a highly personal instrument and PSG players tend to be strongly opinionated and somewhat stubborn.
Universal issues like tuning issues teeter into almost like politics and religion.
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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Niels Andrews · From: Salinas, California, USA

Amen Brother! Laughing

_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

There is no difference in string gauges of the "6th mode" of the E9th and the standard C6th. Except of course the 12 string also contains the extended range of the last 3 strings on the standard C6th.

I wouldn't expect any tone differences owing to that, except that you would be playing everything in B v. C.

In all my years of off and on Universal playing, the difference between that and D10 is primarily feel and visual due to the wider neck. Once you are adjusted to those issues, things become more friendly.

I don't think you would notice any difference tone wise between the standard C6th and the 6th modes of the Universal 12.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

There is a noticeable difference between U12 and D10 tone to my ear. Might work for you. Didn't work for me.
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Bob

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I have two ZumSteels - one U12, and one D10. They both sound great to me. If I use the exact same gauges on U12 for the top 8 strings of E9 and the bottom 4 for C6, then since you get to open B6 via a slackening of the E strings and the tuning is a half-step lower, it does give a marginally slacker feel than standard C6. I mainly notice this on the low strings, so if I can find 'em, I'll put slightly heavier bottom-3 or bottom-4 strings on the U12. In fact, I'd prefer slightly heavier bottom strings on C6. But working out of standard E9 positions, I don't notice any significant difference in sound or feel.

To my ears, every guitar - even ones made exactly the same - sound and feel a bit different to me if I really listen carefully for slight nuances. But I don't think small differences like this make much difference.

BTW - I didn't find any significant adjustment was needed to start playing E9/B6 universal, at least for typical E9 things. Strings 1-8 are exactly the same, and most of the basic E9 is there. There are some differences on the lower strings, of course, and a seasoned long-term D10 player may or may not be satisfied with the compromises inherent in a typical U12 E9/B6 setup. This is why I decided to have both - I really like the U12 for more bluesy/rock stuff. It just depends on what you want to do with it.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I hear differences in tone owing to individual guitars, designs, pickups, bodies etc., but not due to the tunings we're discussing here.

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Have you considered an extended E9th and maybe tune the D down to a C# and maybe a low G#, there's loads of swing chops available on E9, but not for the 'Purist'of Swing Cats most likely.
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A.K.A Chappy.

Al Carey · From: Dublin, NH USA

This is what made me put up that post:

-Play an E chord on the C6 neck, strings 2,3,5
-Play an E Chord on the E9 neck, strings 4,5,7 (with E's lowered)

The strings used are the same gauge!(I hadn't actually looked into that at the time)
Yet, the C6 neck sounds fuller and richer...

Are the pickups on my MSA(Classic, lacquer) wound that differently? I'll also experiment with pickup height, the E9 pup does look higher, which would make a difference.
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Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc...

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The pickups, if they haven't been changed, are identical (as they are on most steels). I suspect what you may be hearing is due to a difference in the right hand, either in position or execution.

I think that if someone else were playing, and you were blindfolded, the result may have been different. Winking

Niels Andrews · From: Salinas, California, USA

Again read what they did at MSA some years ago, available in Reece's article available under links at the forum. The test Donny refers too has been done many times by Pro's. Bottom line is play until you sound like you.
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo.

Al Carey · From: Dublin, NH USA

OK, this is very strange:

Just to see if there was any significant difference in the pickups, I put an ohmmeter on the output jack. The C6 reads 22k, flip the switch to E9 and it shows open!
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Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Al, you have a bit of a promble. Shorted pickups can, through capacitive coupling, pass a signal but it will be weak.
My personal experience is that my MSA lacquered universal with a TrueTone pickup in it is substantially brighter then either neck of my some which has a TrueTone on the E9th and an E66 on the C6 neck. I realize this is not the universal experience
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Al Carey · From: Dublin, NH USA

I think you're right, Lane. I thought the difference in tone was just the nature of the tuning, but upon further investigation I think I have a bum pickup.

I bought a George L's from a fobro via eBay, so we'll see if that doesn't fix it.

The sad thing is, I didn't mind the tone of the E9 neck until I started playing the C6 more. Razz

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Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc...

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Al, your E9th pickup is open (a wire is broken somewhere in the pickup). Open pickups will make sound, but it will usually be weak and trebly compared to a normal pickup. Lane may have gotten mixed up, as a shorted pickup may sound similar (depending on where the short is in the coils) but it's reading will be far below an ordinary pickup, not higher...which is what you have. Smile

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

Al..Here's David Wright....as good as you can get on a Universal 12 stringer. Enjoy !!!!! Very Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3N5oOgf_Rs

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

Al Carey · From: Dublin, NH USA

Ok, I replaced my failed E9 pickup with a george l's, all is much better. The tone is there on both necks. Smile

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Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Donny, I knew what I meant! The fact is I said it wrong. I know the difference between short and open
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Yes Lane, I knew you knew. Did you know I knew you knew? Mr. Green

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