Carter Half-Stop tuning problems!!??!?!?!! Please Help!

Jarek Anderson · From: Ontario, Canada

Forgive me if this answer has already been dealt with, but I'm at my wits end trying to figure this out!

I have a Carter S-10, and I'm having problems tuning the half stop on the 2nd string. My RKR has a half stop, and so RKR takes string 9 from D>C#, and String 2 from D#>D>C#. My process of tuning starts with tuning string 9 at the keyhead, and then string 2 at the keyhead.

From here I can tune string 9's lower to C# first, without any problem. Then I can tune string 2 almost all the way down to C#, which is what the Carter manual says to do. It gets almost all the way, but then I can hear a pop, and the nylon nut is stripped. Or at least it's skipped down a row, but still seems to hold the same position on the rod (it's not slipping, I just can't get it tight enough).

I can then try to tune the half-stop, and get it right, but then the whole-stop goes sharp, and is very close to the half stop. Then the lower on string 9 does nothing at all.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING WRONG!!?!?!?!??!!??

I've tried tuning string 2 at the changer first, and I am not able to get the full-stop lower as far low (in pitch) as when I tune string 9 at the changer first.

I haven't tried tuning the half stop first either, but I don't think this is the solution, and I haven't read anywhere that I should do that first.

The only other symptom I can think of that might be of any use for help in diagnosis, is as follows: if the ends of all the nylon hex nuts on all of the lowers and raises start out in the same position when the guitar is at rest, once I activate RKR to the full or even half stop, the pitches of the strings change, and then return to normal when I release RKR, but the hex nuts stay sticking out of the end of the guitar a little further than the rest of all the other hex nuts. I can push them back in, and nothing changes to the pitch of the strings, but then the next time I activate RKR, they stick out again.

I've flipped the guitar over in its' case, and it seems like the hook of the pull rod is sticking to the pull pin, and so the return of the pull bar is what's causing the pins to stick out.

Now I'm a six-string guitar player for 20 of my 28 years, and I'm in wayyyyyyy over my head when it comes to the mechanics of this guitar, but my best guess for what's going on is that the pull rods are sticking to the pull pins for some reason or another. And at some point after this started to happen, I over tightened my hex nuts, and now they are stripped. To solve this, I'm missing two pieces of the puzzle:

1) Why are the rods sticking to the pull pins, and how do I fix that?

2) How did the rods sticking lead to me over tightening the hex nuts such that I'm not able to tune my lowers anymore?

Do I simply need to replace these hex nuts? I tried two new ones on string two and the split at 'string 11' in the changer but the problem is the same, and I've stripped one of those again.

Is there something else wrong with my guitar?

Sorry for the long winded question; please forgive my amateur understanding!

richard burton · From: Britain

Calm down, let's start from the top Very Happy

Unscrew all the nylon tuners connected to strings 2, 9, and the Carter half stop mechanism quite a few turns.

Make sure that the changer fingers are now at rest in their 'open' position, and nothing is stopping them (a broken string ball end might be stuck in there)

Start with the 2nd string.

Tune it up to D# at the keyhead.

Activate the RKR and hold it in the activated position.

Screw in the 2nd string nylon tuner (the one that lowers the string) until the string has been lowered to C#.

Release the lever, and check that the finger has returned to it's open (neutral) position, and that there is a small amount of free play between the nylon tuner and the finger.

If the finger has not returned to its neutral position, then you may need to increase the travel of the lever, but as long as you have the correct gauge string on there, and you haven't moved the little brass pin in the bellcrank, the travel should be ok.

Now tune the 9th string at the keyhead to D.

Hold the RKR in its activated position again, and screw the 9th string nylon tuner in until the string has lowered to C#.

Release the lever and check that everything has returned to neutral etc.

There will likely be a lot of free play between the 9th string nylon tuner and the finger, and that's ok.

Now, adjust the Carter half-stop nylon tuner until it just kicks in when you activate the RKR and the 2nd string has lowered a semitone (to D).

Unless you are very lucky, this half-stop position will not coincide with the starting position of the 9th string.

For that to happen, you need an extra rod on the 9th, but that's another story....

Jarek Anderson · From: Ontario, Canada

Thanks Richard... I'm running out the door to catch my bus, but I'll try that order the minute I get home today!

Jarek Anderson · From: Ontario, Canada

Ok, so I loosened everything off, and then tuned my D#, and engaged RKR. I got almost all the way down to C# and then the Hex Nut starts 'popping'. Seems like it's either stripped, or is stripping. I can't get the 2nd string to go all the way down to C#.

What's my next step?

Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Jarek:

Could you try a different tuning nut from a different pull?

By the way...where are you? I am in the Ottawa area and might be able to have a look, though I'm not familiar with Carters.

Mike
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MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list

Jarek Anderson · From: Ontario, Canada

I think I may have figured out my problem.

Richard: your advice was perfect, and I now have the guitar in tune. I noticed that as the 'popping' sound was happening, the hex nuts weren't turning. I was using a 'Big Knob' tuning wrench at the time, and the ends of the hex nuts were looking like they were a little distressed i.e. twisted around a little. Maybe I put too much torque on them in the beginning?

Anyway, I grabbed my other tuning wrench, and was able to turn the hex nuts without the 'popping' sound. I think that it was just the head of the hex nut slipping in the tuning wrench.

I'm all tuned up now!

But should the hex nuts be sooooo stiff that they're bending and getting warped in the tuning wrench? I guess I need to replace a few of them.

Is there a better material for this, or do I need to lubricate them with some beeswax or something? I undertand that I'm cutting new threads; I just hope I'm not going to cause the pull rod to warp at all either.

Jarek Anderson · From: Ontario, Canada

Thanks for the offer Mike, I'll PM you!

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

Listen to Richard, he knows his stuff, mind you on my Carter uni, he made a special device for the double lower on the second string..it's second to none!! no over shoot on the first lower and it's fitted near the back apron, so the first lower can be adjusted in seconds. He also made "Flags" for the LKL and RKR on my Sho-Bud Universal. The action on all his steels (he has a few) is amazing Very Happy

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Jarek Anderson · From: Ontario, Canada

I'm assuming I need 5/40 thread, and mine are a little longer then 1"; my only problem is finding open ended ones on the internet? I can find lots of closed and ones, but I think I'd like to try the other type.

Any suggestions?

Ransom Beers · Posted 27 Jan 2013 8:12 am

Jarek,get in touch with Don Burrows (BSG Steel Guitars)he has a link on top of the page.He makes his tuning nuts with the hole over sized & a bit deep to compensate for running out of thread space(do that make sense?)Ask Don to help you,a great guy to do business with & builds a great guitar.

Jarek Anderson · From: Ontario, Canada

I was able to figure out my problem, but I forgot to add it here, just in case anyone else runs into the same thing. The tuners were looking like they were a little twisted at the ends. I was using a 'Big Wrench' to tune up my guitar at the time that the clicking sound was happening. I got some new hex nuts from Al Brisco, and put them on, but got the same problem using the big wrench. I looked very carefully at what was happening, and I noticed that the tuners were slipping in the wrench.

So my educated guess is that the hex nut tuners were running into a little more force as they hit the end of their pre-cut threads, and so as I turned with the big wrench, I was torquing them in a way that twisted the nut itself, which caused the actual size of the hexagon to shrink a little. After this point, the nut was just slipping in the wrench. I was able to turn the nuts with a different wrench, and get the guitar tuned properly.

I'm going to get my hands on some new nuts, and maybe some with open ends.

Thanks to everyone who tried to help me out with this!

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I have used the George L nylon nuts on my Carter and have never had a problem with them bottoming out with the rod. When new, they are very tight as you just cut the threads with the rod.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Jarek Anderson · From: Ontario, Canada

Yea, I didn't have a problem until now. I'm not sure if I reached the end of the nut, or maybe I just needed to lubricate it? In any case I'm able to tune now. I'll have it up to Al's next chance I get to make sure there's nothing wrong otherwise.

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