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Topic: What's causing this noise? Solved. Answer is poor blocking. |
Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Uffe Edefuhr
From:
Sweden
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 11:18 am |
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That sounds not so nice.Some kind of feedback? Could it be that you have placed the amp to close to the guitar pickup?
Uffe |
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Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 11:27 am
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Thanx for the reply Uffe.
I tried it with amp facing different directions.
No change except I had a harder time hearing what was being played.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
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Jim Lindsey (Louisiana)
From:
Greenwell Springs, Louisiana (deceased)
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 11:36 am
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Hi, Hans,
I don't know if this helps or not, but in my early days of playing steel, whenever I was playing my MSA at home, I sometimes got that same annoying feedback sound. Now, I don't know for sure if this is what's causing it in your case, but I noticed where your amp is in relation to your pickups. Here's a little food for thought.
In the case of my guitar, I often had my amp set in a very similar fashion in relation to my guitar pickups. Despite the fact that I was using Humbucker type pickups (which I've heard a lot of people swear do not ever become microphonic), mine did and the sound of my amp was feeding into my pickups and they did, in fact, produce microphonic feedback and I would get that same annoying feedback-like screech you're describing. I merely moved the amp and got used to it being on the floor or in a different spot and that solved my problem.
Again, I don't know if that's exactly what's going on with your rig, but if you're always playing with the amp aimed pretty much at your pickups like it is in the YouTube video, I'd suggest moving the amp and see if that might solve the problem.
I've seen other steelers have the same issue, move their amps, and it was resolved ... yet, I've also seen other steelers with their amp speakers in such proximity and never have an issue at all.
Again, this is just food for thought ... IF your noise problem is exactly the same as mine was, it's nothing more than your pickups picking up your speakers and feeding back ... move the amp and you should solve the issue ... also, try to never leave your volume pedal in the full "on" position all the time ... this can sometimes also produce a feedback, especially if your guitar is having any sort of microphonic issues. Hope that may be helpful. 
_________________
1986 Mullen D-10 with 8 & 7 (Dual Bill Lawrence 705 pickups each neck)
Two Peavey Nashville 400 Amps (with a Session 500 in reserve) - Yamaha SPX-90 II
Peavey ProFex II - Yamaha R-1000 Digital Reverb - Ross Time Machine Digital Delay - BBE Sonic Maximizer 422A
ProCo RAT R2DU Dual Distortion - Korg DT-1 Pro Tuner (Rack Mounted) - Furman PL-8 Power Bay
Goodrich Match-Bro by Buddy Emmons - BJS Steel Bar (Dunlop Finger Picks / Golden Gate Thumb Picks) |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 11:37 am
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| Hans--unless there is something else that you are referring to that I am not hearing, the sound is 100% ringing strings caused by inadequate blocking technique. You are basically hitting a chiming node with your picks and setting up ringing harmonics. I am not a student of proper pick blocking method so I will not make suggestions to correct your pick blocking but you will kill the ringing if you palm block the strings with the side of your picking hand. |
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Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 11:58 am
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Thanx, Jim and John.
Here's what I just tried.
I have my amp facing in the opposite direction now.
I have the volume pedal disconnected.
I am using no picks.
I pick only one string at a time.
None of this makes any difference.
My gut feeling is, that although its a humbucker pickup, the pickup is somehow creating a feedback loop.
Is there any way of testing whether or not its the pickup?
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 12:38 pm
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It's the other strings... you have to mute them; they get excitation from the picked strings. Happens on all multi-stringed instruments. It can travel through the air, the bridge, the bar... even the pickup.
In the video, you're pick-muting... palm-muting tends to get all the strings, whereas pick-muting can only get the strings the picks are on. You said it yourself... palm muting quiets the sound.
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 12:58 pm
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Thanx for your response, Stephen.
True, palm blocking stops all strings from ringing.
That I get.
Why is it then that Joe Wright, who uses pick blocking, never has any of the ringing noise?
Check out any one of these lessons he did for Sierra Guitars.
http://www.sierrasteels.com/lessons/e9th-lessons.html
What is he doing that I fail to do?
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
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Jason Putnam
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 1:06 pm
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I would try to contact Doug and talk to him about it. My guess is its a problem with the pickup. One way to know for sure is to try it with a different amp and see if the problem still exists. I have the exact setup you have. Stage One steel and Nashville 112 amp. I don't have that feedback issue.If it does it with a different amp, you know its a problem with the steel. If not then its a problem with the amp. Could be settings related. Those 112 amps have an overbearing midrange from the factory. Settings are very important. I hope this helps you out!! Learning steel is frustrating enough without technical problems to complicate things further!! Good Luck!
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1967 Emmons Bolt On, 1995 Mullen PRP 3x5,Nashville 112, JOYO Digital Delay, Goodrich Volume Pedal, Livesteel Strings |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 1:27 pm
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You're picking open strings, and it sounds to me like there is residual vibration of the strings behind the nut
Try putting a cloth over the strings at the keyhead (behind the nut) and see what happens |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 1:28 pm
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| Sounds to me like your not muting the strings behind the bar with your fingers so your gettin unwanted string noise from other strings. |
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Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 1:45 pm
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Here's a pic of the foam I have on the strings behind the nut, Richard.
It makes no difference.
Andy, I just tried muting behind the bar.
I made sure that all stings were contacting my fingers.
This too made no difference.
Thank you both for taking the time to try to help.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 2:01 pm
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My take - you are getting harmonics on some of these (note - not all of them) because your picks are not completely muting, but effectively setting up a clean, unmuted stop for the strings, combined with the fact that the amp speaker is a matter of inches away from the end of the steel. We can't see your bar hand, but you may also not be muting behind the bar, as someone else suggested, but can't verify - if true, that could contribute to this. Since you're holding the notes, the speaker appears to be exciting the harmonic(s) created by those clean stops. Again, it doesn't happen every time, and the sounds I'm hearing sound like harmonics to me. So I'd say it's a combination of all those things - incomplete muting, making a clean stop at a harmonic node of the string, and the strong excitation from the sound coming from the amp.
| Quote: |
| Why is it then that Joe Wright, who uses pick blocking, never has any of the ringing noise? |
Well, first, he's Joe Wright, who is an absolute master player, and a master of pick-blocking in particular. But I also don't see his amp anywhere near the end of his steel. I've never seen anybody put an 80-watt amp right at the end of their steel the way you're doing here. The center of sound is at string/pickup level. Put the steel on the floor in back of you and tilt it back at your head and practice your blocking.
Also my take - pick blocking by someone who really has it together is especially effective on fast passages. Note that in such situations, the notes aren't being held for a long time and the next note overwhelms the signal coming from the steel, which is what the amp emphasizes, at the expense of these types of harmonics. This isn't to say that someone really skilled at pick-blocking can't get away with just that for slower passages, but I find myself adding other techniques for slower stuff. For me, whatever works, and it's clear from your video that when you palm-block, the harmonics go away. |
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Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 9:02 pm
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I think this will end this post for me.
Thank you all for your efforts in helping me.
Here's what finally made me realize that each of you were correct about what was causing the noise.
Shortly after Dave's post, my son and his wife came over bringing my 10 week old granddaughter, Emma Rose. 
My son plays guitar, 6 string type. 
He was able to pick and not get any noise.
He explained that the noise was harmonics.
I then got down to the height of the strings to see his right hand.
The heel of his palm muted 3 or 4 strings.
His thumb muted 2.
His ring(R) and pinkie muted another 2.
That only left 3 stings that he pick blocked.
Next we watched the Joe Wright video.
He too was doing something similar.
The final result: I will now figure out how to palm block.
It'll take some effort but I know I have no choice if I wish to play a pedal steel.
I waited 57 years before I found an instrument I could learn to play.
I'm not about to give up anytime soon.
Thanx, guys.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 9:37 pm
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| Hans Penner wrote: |
Thanx for your response, Stephen.
True, palm blocking stops all strings from ringing.
That I get.
Why is it then that Joe Wright, who uses pick blocking, never has any of the ringing noise?
Check out any one of these lessons he did for Sierra Guitars.
http://www.sierrasteels.com/lessons/e9th-lessons.html
What is he doing that I fail to do? |
I watched part of the very first E9 lesson... I don't think it was Mr. Wright.
Notice his middle finger... it's muting the strings past the end of the bar. Also note his thumb... it's muting the lower strings (he lays it flat). And the palm gets the rest.
Muting is a b*tch... that's why I don't use picks, so much easier when both your hands are free to mute. You'll see folks sticking their right hand pinky out during palm muting to catch the high strings... everyone does it differently, but the one constant is: if you don't mute it, it will ring.
That's another reason to pick the bar up... muting with your left hand. When you do it right, there's no ringing.
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 20 Jan 2013 10:58 pm
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If you pick soft and turn the amp up to compensate for it you then make those little tinkly tings and other things noticable.
If you pick block turn the amp down and pick harder.
Besides that's way to long to linger with your finger for a pickblocker. |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 26 Jan 2013 11:30 pm psg
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| The pickup, I couldn't tell much about it but is it a "EMG" brand, pu? Or many a "Barcus Berry" pu? Guitar to VP to 112, correct? I'd say the pickup is bad and needs replacing. For that particular PSG, I'd replace it with a E66 by GeorgeL. |
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Jason Lynch
From:
Essex, United Kingdom
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Posted 27 Jan 2013 4:42 am harmonics
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As a relative beginner myself (3 years in) can I ask? Are you picking around the 17 or 19 fret? you could be creating a natural harmonic when you put the picks back down...just an idea.
Also, I'd try using some other amp, even if you can borrow somebody's for half an hour...
plug headphones in. does it do it now?
then consider a P/U change.
regards |
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Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 27 Jan 2013 1:04 pm
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After carefully analyzing what is happening, I am convinced that poor blocking is the actual root cause.
I can't block the lower strings with my left thumb because I don't have one.
Palm blocking is rather difficult because of a deformed right elbow.
I don't know how Joe Wright does it.
I'll have to get him to take a look vis-a-vis my being able to pick block.
I plan to try numerous guitars in Dallas.
Maybe some are less prone to harmonics?
Until then I'm going to make some serious efforts at palm blocking.
Thanx to all of you who took the time to try and help me with my problem.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 27 Jan 2013 1:21 pm
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Hi Hans---there is more than one school of thought re: palm blocking technique. This leads me to the conclusion that one cannot instruct any one single right way to do it.
My own technique is not quite 'correct' but it works for me---sort of a self-taught hybrid. So don't worry too much about whether what you try is right---if your elbow does not permit a particular way, then you need to arrive at something that works, via persistence and ingenuity.
My own way of thinking involves imagining the way the dampers work on a piano---releasing when you hit the key, damping when you release the key. Up & down with a little wrist rocking.
You do show that you can turn the forearm enough for a full block with the side of the hand.
Work with it!
It is not easy but....what is? Keep at it! You will solve it. |
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Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 27 Jan 2013 2:56 pm
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Thanx for the encouraging words, Jon.
I have found the solution I need often appears when I am noodling.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2013 8:32 am
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| I found poor blocking to be the culprit 99% of the time when I had a rattle/buzz. |
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