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Topic: Three things I think you must know to speed up learning! |
Stuart Legg
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 1:22 pm |
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I'm not saying that anyone’s way of teaching isn't correct, I'm only stating that until a student can grasp these three simple little charts and understand how to apply them to their playing it's going to be a long drawn out monkey see monkey do slow expensive process for them.
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Pete Conklin
From:
Austin, TX
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 3:58 pm
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Stuart, can you explain a little bit what's going on here. I've stared at it for a while and I'm not getting it.
You mention "three" charts. Is this all three or are two missing? |
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Bill Waskiewicz
From:
Deerfield Beach, Florida, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 4:18 pm
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| Pete, I'm with you. |
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Dennis Russell
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 6:02 pm I'll try.
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I'll give this a shot.
The first chart (top) is the location of major scale notes (playing the major scale, ascending 3rds).
The second (middle) is playing arpeggios of the major diatonic chord progression.
Botton chart is the where the notes will be found for chords, useful for knowing the name of the notes in a chords symbol (for instance, Gmin7b5#11. Notes will be 1, b3, b5, b7, #11--easily found by referring to this chart).
At least that's my interpretation. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 7:03 pm This stuff confuses me........................
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What ever happened with someone hearing a pleasant tune with some kind of pretty or catchy melody, then while driving down the road, simply start to whistle that tune?
He didn't have to learn all types of mathematical formula or technical charts with all kinds of foreign language just to whistle a simple tune.
That's the way we learned to play steel guitar.
HEAR the tune....... Find the starting point on the guitar and then set out to learn to play it.
Or since Elvis, has music become so much more technical that simply learning the tune isn't sufficient to playing it? Three chord songs being played on $4,000 guitars that require a rocket scientist to explain how to do it. It's my opinion that the instrument has been studied to death without any apparent musical progress being made. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 8:07 pm
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While I think I grasp your approach, Stuart, I think some explanation and demo section would be necessary for beginners. I do find the bottom section to be a great concise way to visualize/catalog various chord/arpeggio possibilities.
Ray, while I respect the time-honored hunt and peck method, the emphasis on theory talked about here and in other threads applies to much more than learning one song at a time... the understanding and development of the ability to improvise, learn songs on the fly, support other musicians and vocalists, and "play by ear" among other prerequisites for a professional player are all underpinned, enhanced, and accelerated by study and application of theory. Trying to learn any instrument by picking out one song at a time is a long haul when one can do that against the framework of the structure all songs have in common.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 8:22 pm
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Ray, I imagine that there are many others like yourself who love a simple tune played beautifully--I know I do. But there are also many of us who are students of music more than steel guitarists. We want to understand as much as we can about music in order to capture some of the beauty that the real masters understood (Debussy, Ravel, Bach, Beethoven, etc.).
Music has a ton of information in it--at the very highest level you may not notice it, but the composers and performers do know how much it took to achieve that greatness. In my lifetime, though it may not really be feasible, I strive for greatness--I know what greatness means to me. You may have a different opinion of what it is.
Mike
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 9:04 pm
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Stuart
I love to analyze all things musical, and I've found that deeply studying the pedal steel has helped me progress towards my goals, so I am interested in your post. That being said, I'm not understanding exactly what this is. There is also, with you, the possibility that its some kind of a joke, causing anyone who responds seriously to look a little foolish, so - please explain!
Mike
Yeah, man.
Ray
Little musical progress being made from careful study and analysis:
Reece Anderson, Sez Adamson, Paul Franklin, Dave Easley, and many many other current steelers playing very advanced music have arguably benefitted from study, as well as whistling catchy tunes - both seem useful, regardless of instrument.
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 9:53 pm Re: I'll try.
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| Dennis Russell wrote: |
I'll give this a shot.
The first chart (top) is the location of major scale notes (playing the major scale, ascending 3rds).
The second (middle) is playing arpeggios of the major diatonic chord progression.
Botton chart is the where the notes will be found for chords, useful for knowing the name of the notes in a chords symbol (for instance, Gmin7b5#11. Notes will be 1, b3, b5, b7, #11--easily found by referring to this chart).
At least that's my interpretation. |
You all have it but I think Dennis said it better than my chart showed.
1st chart = the scale in numbers with how the harmony is derived from the skip a scale note concept . (1,3) (2,4) (3,5) etc.
2nd chart = the basic chords of the modes of the major scale as derived from the skip a scale note concept.
3rd chart = chords as derived from the skip a scale note concept and choose one note and one only from each box as far as you need to go to arrive at your chord selection. Lets say 1 is C and I choose one from each appropriate box to form a Caug11 or a C13b9b5 etc.
Since I chose C as 1 for the above I'll stay with that in my examples.
I chose an F lever (the one that raises the E's a 1/2 step) to get the harmonies and a 1/2 A pedal to get the C9b5 in the examples below.
That's not to say that's the only way to get the harmony or the chord.
The harmony is shown inverted as well in the example below.
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Bo Legg
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 10:21 pm
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Stuart is going to let me give you the punch line he has been leading up to here.
This is the one thing (this little chart ) which sums it all up, that you need to know.
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Joe Gall
From:
DeLand, Florida
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 10:42 pm
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Even with the explanations, I still don't get it. Guess that's why I'll never be a real player. Just have to accept that and keep on struggling along and hoping for the best and praying for a miracle!
_________________
Been at this damn thing for a few years now. Not so sure that I'm getting anywhere but it is fun. Sometimes. |
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David Hartley
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Posted 9 Jan 2013 10:43 pm Phew!
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I agree with Ray Montee, hello Ray..
Looking at all that would make me want to give up.
Could be a 'wind up' going on here I think.!
It's an instrument, not a formulae to work out the meaning of life.
Just get a guitar, tune it, try and pick out melodies from tunes you enjoy.
It don't hurt to use a bit of tab to help you learn a few licks but don't rely on them, and getting a bit of 'one to one' tuition from time to time helps too.
But with reference to them charts, they look scientific to me, in fact, looking at then a second time before hitting the submit button confirms to me it's a wind up. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 2:41 am
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David I don't know what you mean by "wind up" but I'm sure it can't be good.
I'm not suggesting you put anything up on a music stand that looks scientific or is a chart that had numbers or notes on it or even tab to play by.
But it might be very handy in communicating music or teaching someone.
For instance the Newbie hears a little 4 to 5 run kind of a swing thing that starts on the 5 of the 4 chord and ends up on the b7 of the 5 chord. He wants to let the 4 chord ring while he makes the run until he gets to the b7 of the 5 chord.
He can choose to hunt for a long time on the PSG or He can order $$$$$$ of tab and hope the run might show up in some of it somewhere.
He could ask a great player but of course if the great player doesn’t understand the numbers then they can’t even have this conversation. In that case the great player can hunt for it as well.
Or the Newbie could do what Stuart suggests here.
If you were to ask Stuart the same question
He could tab it out in short order just by using TablEdit and a Spreadsheet.
Here’s the tab for that run and how he arrived at it on a spreadsheet he programmed.
The whole thing took about 10min and now the whole world can use it or maybe not.
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David Hartley
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 3:46 am Hi Bo
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A wind up, is a joke. I thought it was.
But, if it's a genuine usable chart of numbers that helps anyone, then let them use it.
I still can't make head or tail of it myself.
Regards, David H. |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:03 am
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Bo and Stuart
It is a very novel way of conveying notes, and once explained it makes sense. As someone who uses spreadsheets at work every day I had never even considered using one in this way. The great thing with spreadsheets is that you can make instantaneous changes. Just as an aside, if I was going to make it sound a bit 'swingier' I would use strings 9,6&5 to start the run before using the A pedal, but that is a different matter.
I still think that TablEdit takes some beating to prepare tab. It's quick and logical, and as David H has pointed out, not everybody can grasp the different method of the spreadsheet.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E,
Last edited by Ken Byng on 10 Jan 2013 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ransom Beers
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:04 am
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| Ray M. & David H. got it right,what happened to "Playing by ear" as probably 99% of steelers have done.(I'm not one of em',my ears get too sore). |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:27 am
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| Ransom Beers wrote: |
| Ray M. & David H. got it right,what happened to "Playing by ear" as probably 99% of steelers have done.(I'm not one of em',my ears get too sore). |
Just because you play by ear doesn't mean you shouldn't be curious enough to learn the "science" of music. I play by ear--I also have a pretty deep and ever-deepening understanding of the science of music. It is this simple fact that would allow me to sit down at any instrument and make music. I might not possess the technique required to play it proficiently, but my knowledge of music would guide me.
It also this knowledge that helps me write and arrange for other instruments. Should a steel player not be capable of sitting down and writing out a score for a horn section, or maybe a string section, or should he just be relegated to being a sideman for the rest of his life? I don't remember seeing a label on the instrument saying "For sidemen only." The instrument is capable of so much--why limit it?
The pedal steel guitar is capable of some very complex and sophisticated music--I don't see why anyone would be afraid of exploring what that might mean.
The old-fashioned mentality does a lot to dissuade the furtherance of the instrument, in my opinion.
I say this all with great respect to those pickers who have done so much to teach others how to play and offered their experiences, but I also ask you to open your mind to the possibility that your way is not the only way. Not everyone sees things in black and white.
Truthfully, I am commenting here without having really paid attention to the original post. Sorry, Stuart!
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Joe Gall
From:
DeLand, Florida
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:30 am
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Well, it's nice to know that it is possible to play by ear. Because if one must take the math & science route that I am toast, dead in the road right now and I may as well give up on my life long dream of wanting to play this thing right now. Because the theory part of this whole thing for me just floats right on by no matter how hard I try to grab on...
PS I would be thrilled to be good enough to be labeled a sideman. That would indicate that I was at least good enough to play next to someone in a band! LOL
_________________
Been at this damn thing for a few years now. Not so sure that I'm getting anywhere but it is fun. Sometimes.
Last edited by Joe Gall on 10 Jan 2013 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:35 am
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| Joe Gall wrote: |
| .... Because the theory part of this whole thing for me just floats right on by no matter how hard I try to grab on... |
You're just grabbing on at the wrong place, Joe. It's kid's stuff, believe me! A teacher could easily help you with that, if you were so inclined.
It gets frustrating sometimes with some of you guys who are all very intelligent and do all kinds of sophisticated things like repair jet engines, fly planes and mess with all kinds of mechanics, and yet music theory is something that is taboo. It's just like anything else, there's no mystery to it. The only mystery is how we put the information to use (creativity). There are plenty of people who know all the theory in the world and don't really understand how to use it, too--the key is finding a balance.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links
Last edited by Mike Neer on 10 Jan 2013 5:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joe Gall
From:
DeLand, Florida
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:40 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Joe Gall wrote: |
| .... Because the theory part of this whole thing for me just floats right on by no matter how hard I try to grab on... |
You're just grabbing on at the wrong place, Joe. It's kid's stuff, believe me! A teacher could easily help you with that, if you were so inclined. |
If we ever get to a point where we can afford the extra expense on a weekly basis, this is on my list! Due to my vision loss I lost my career three years ago so I have more time on my hands than anything else.
You would think after a year and a half at this thing I would be further along than I am by now. I can play along with songs, find all the chords, play fills etc. it's playing solos or breaks in songs where I get lost. I either start off ok or get lost right away or loose my place etc. It get incredibly frustrated with myself because I hear exactly what should be played, I just can't play it!
_________________
Been at this damn thing for a few years now. Not so sure that I'm getting anywhere but it is fun. Sometimes.
Last edited by Joe Gall on 10 Jan 2013 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:43 am
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| Joe Gall wrote: |
| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Joe Gall wrote: |
| .... Because the theory part of this whole thing for me just floats right on by no matter how hard I try to grab on... |
You're just grabbing on at the wrong place, Joe. It's kid's stuff, believe me! A teacher could easily help you with that, if you were so inclined. |
If we ever get to a point where we can afford the extra expense on a weekly basis, this is on my list! |
Joe, I'm sure the open bar in your new music room would go a long way toward payment!
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Joe Gall
From:
DeLand, Florida
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:49 am
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LOL yeah maybe, if anyone in the area sees this, come on over, the bar is ALWAYS OPEN!
_________________
Been at this damn thing for a few years now. Not so sure that I'm getting anywhere but it is fun. Sometimes. |
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Kevin Lichtsinn
From:
Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 5:56 am Re: This stuff confuses me........................
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| Ray Montee wrote: |
What ever happened with someone hearing a pleasant tune with some kind of pretty or catchy melody, then while driving down the road, simply start to whistle that tune?
He didn't have to learn all types of mathematical formula or technical charts with all kinds of foreign language just to whistle a simple tune.
That's the way we learned to play steel guitar.
HEAR the tune....... Find the starting point on the guitar and then set out to learn to play it.
Or since Elvis, has music become so much more technical that simply learning the tune isn't sufficient to playing it? Three chord songs being played on $4,000 guitars that require a rocket scientist to explain how to do it. It's my opinion that the instrument has been studied to death without any apparent musical progress being made. |
Thankyou Ray!  I needed this refreshing post. |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 6:04 am Re: Hi Bo
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| David Hartley wrote: |
I still can't make head or tail of it myself. |
I can't help thinking this is an fx thing, meant to see how many will bite. (whatever it is, it's workin')
_________________
Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 10 Jan 2013 6:09 am Re: This stuff confuses me........................
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| Kevin Lichtsinn wrote: |
Thankyou Ray! I needed this refreshing post. |
I give up! 
Seriously, I will be at the TSGA and I will extend an offer to anyone who's going to be there and is interested: I will spend an hour or 2 with a group of people teaching the very fundamentals of music theory--it will be enough for you to walk away having a better understanding of it and is guaranteed to cut down on the time you spend hunting and pecking or bowling for notes.
What do you say?
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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