Help changing GFI copedent

Paul Buller · From: Louisiana, USA

I'm trying to figure out how to make my right knee do what the left knee currently does on my GFI Ultra (lower and raise the E's). Could anybody give me some answers? Is it necessary to detach the actual lever bracket from the body and swap places? Is it just a matter of changing the rods from the lever bell cranks to the appropriate cross shaft bell cranks? Or does it require changing the rods from the changer fingers to the correct cross shaft bell cranks that correspond to the levers you want to use? Also, Is there a general reason to use certain holes/slots on the bell cranks, or do you just try to use whatever holes keep the rods from rubbing each other?

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Levers should stay where they are now.

The GFI is very easy to change copedent on, but the first time you perform such an operation it is likely to be anything but easy.
Set aside plenty of time, and organize "the operation" well so you don't end up with damaged and/or lost parts and an unplayable or hard to tune instrument. Working slowly and taking pictures and making notes, will help, but if you can find someone more familiar with changing copedents on steels in your neigborhood, I would strongly advice you to get hands-on help.

Read on, and see if this is something you really, really, want to take on on your own.

If you have this E9 copedent now, I advice you to make clear notes of what bellcrank and changer-finger holes the relevant pull-rods are in now, as "which holes" affect action: travel (length and how heavy) and timing. You probably want the same for all pulls as now, just on the other knee.

All pull-rods for the four levers (LKL & LKR become RKL & RKR, and RKL and RKR become LKL & LKR) you are swapping pulls on, must be taken out. They go back in on the same cross shafts they go on now -- but in different positions (different string pulls), so just put them aside for now.

Remove the barrels holding the pull-rods in the holes on the bellcranks, and take good care of them, shims and all.

Bellcranks must be moved over on their respective shafts so they line up with the correct changer position. Can not just loosen and push them over, so take all relevant bellcranks off their shafts and put them back in where they should be. Keep an eye on the GFI E9 copedent page while doing this, and the correct new line-up should be pretty clear. Draw your own copedent table, and keep all notes, so you know where everything goes once finished.

Once all bellcranks are in (new) place, you put back pull-rods one by one. Easy to see which pull-rod length that goes where. No pull-rod should be cut in length, just swap them around until they end up going from correct changer position to the right bellcrank for your new copedent.

Be careful not to overtighten the screws in the barrels holding the pull-rod in bellcrank, as those barrels are not all that strong and can break if using too much force. Pull-rods should stay firm during pulls - not more.

If you have the exact same copedent now as shown on the GFI site, you will end up a pull-rod short. RKL has 3 pulls while the other have 2 each, so you will need one new, full-length, pull-rod when swapping changes between knees. All else should be there.

One thing I will mention: instead of placing the GFI upside down while working on its mechanics, I find it much easier to place it fully set up with legs, pedalbar and all on its keyhead end. Put something thin and soft but steady under its end plate to prevent scratching, and make sure it can't tip over while working on it. Take off the back-leg on the changer end (only) so it does not get in the way.

This way all levers/pedals can be operated and action seen, and heard, while working, and pull-rods will hang on the changer fingers when loose. Remember to push pull-rods slightly up (towards the changer) to preserve free-play before/when tightening bellcrank barrel screws, and you can immediately check that the pull is reasonable withing range for each string by picking, pulling lever and listen.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Georg just laid down a very good list and procedure guide.
He didn't answer a couple questions of yours, so that gives me room to pipe up and answer your last question.
The PRIMARY reason for choosing certain holes on both bellcranks and changers is for timing pulls: different size strings react slower or faster to finger travel, but if 4 and 8 both move a half step, you will ideally want them moving together, so one will require more leverage than the other, such as (I use these numbers only as illustration, and if I have the numbers right, it's an accident) say the fourth string finger needs to rotate 5° to move from E to D#, while the thinner-cored 8th string (for changer purposes, the total diameter doesn't matter, it's the core. A 0.030 string will probably have a 0.10 core and a wrap the same) will need to rotate 9°, and most folks want them to start and stop together.
Avoiding interference between pulls is of secondary importance, but does come into play
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Paul Buller · From: Louisiana, USA

That was fast! Thanks for the input, guys.

So if I have this right then, the rods that lead from the leavers to the cross shafts don't get touched when performing this copedent change, correct? It's a matter of swapping out different lengths of pull rods to connect the far/near cross shafts (for the specific levers) to the changer fingers. And on top of that, if the rod that raises my E's to F (for example) currently is connected to the top hole of the cross shaft bell crank and the other end connects to the bottom hole on the finger (and both of these holes are just arbitrary for the purpose of example) then when I swap out that length pull rod for a different length and connect it to a different cross shaft, the rod should be place in the same position holes on both the bell crank and the changer, correct?

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Sounds like you are fairly new to the pedal steel guitar. Can I ask why you want to change the copedent around? If you have already been playing a guitar that is set up the way you want to change the GFI to, then I can see it. If you are just starting out, I don't see a lot of point in changing it around, just learn the way it is set up now.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Essentially correct.
The Cliff's Notes version of what you'll do (remember to take lots of pictures to give you references)
1: make a rodding chart, detailing which holes in the bellcranks and which holes in the changer.
This is easiest by assigning letters to the bellcrank's holes (A nearest the cross-shafts, H or however high your count is at the tip), and numbering the changer holes, 1 closest to the the strings and 6 closest to the bottom of the endplate. A sample might be as simple as "LKL: 4B3; 8C2" where 4 is the string, the rod pulls from the second hole in the bellcrank to the third hole in the changer, and on the 8th string it pulls from the 3rd hole in the bellcrank to the second hole in the changer.
2: remove the rods for the first two levers you want to swap, taking care not to lose parts (do NOT do this operation in a room with 3" shag carpet unless you want to buy barrels and bellcranks and spacers. Ask Michael Yahl how much he's made off my living room carpet)
3: reposition the bellcranks to be in line with their new slots in the changer
4: install the rods in their new locations on their new strings

EDIT: Mr Sinkler speaks wise words.
If this is your first guitar, I suggest learning it as it sits.
If this is a REPLACEMENT guitar, like your second guitar and you sold your first, I'd say the same.
If it's a 2nd axe, and you want it to match the first, then I can see an advantage (but I see a distinct advantage to keeping two guitars different; you'd FORCE mental agility on yourself, which steepens the learning curve but probably makes you better)
But if you're wanting to do it because you just want to tinker with it and learn how it works, GO FOR IT. I rejiggered my pull-release Marlen without the internet OR making a rodding chart
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Paul Buller · From: Louisiana, USA

Lane, thanks for the help....is there any pointers you can give me when I go to swap out my RKR pedal which either raises/lowers (can't remember which) one string a half step then starts to engage a second string for a half step and continues on the first string for another half step (am I a good communicator or what?).

Richard, to answer your question, I'm fairly new...been playing a couple years. Basically, I'm a copy cat. I've been looking at some YouTube videos of Lloyd green playing fairwell party, Greg leisz playing a John mayor song in the studio and Eric Heywood playing in 96 on Austin City Limits and it appears that all of these guys (which I idolize) mess with their E's with the right knee. And it makes sence when you play scales that involve mashing the A pedal and using the LKR lever (lower the E's..... this is hard for me...short legs). It seems like it would be easier doing this with the right knee.

Speaking of that...anybody have opinions on if I should switch LKL with RKL or RKR (and the same for the other)??? It seems like I should make RKR do what LKL does (both actions involve swinging the knee to the outside of the guitar...or does that sound silly?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

the RKR you speak of probably lowers 2 to D, where it picks up the 9th string D and they continue together to C#.
The only suggestion is to get the rodding right; in the same holes on the new bellcranks and changers as the old. Changing which holes you use will foul up the timing
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Paul Buller · From: Louisiana, USA

After looking a little closer and doing some research it looks like I was wrong about Lloyd Green...looks like he raises the E's with the LKR (the very thing I find hard to do while mashing the A pedal). Perhaps I just need practice....or shorter legs on my steel.

Sorry, didn't want to start a false rumor.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Remember, Lloyd only chose that placement from inertia. He already HAD three knees, and didn't have an LKR, and just didn't feel like rearranging everything.
Nobody starting from scratch puts that change there unless they have Day pedals
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Lloyd Green's E9 tuning from way back, is just a bit "minimalistic". What lever each change is on doesn't make any real difference - except to him and what he has gotten used to.

The only PSG I have seen that had a "Lloyd Green emulation", had an extra, staggered, lever that lowered 8th string but not 4th a half step. The rest of the copedent was pretty standard, identical to the original GFI set-up.

If the only reason for changing copedent is to test someone else's, I suggest you by and large keep changes on the levers you have them on now, and just test how these other players' changes work and sound by adding and/or subtracting the relevant changes by removing, swapping or putting in one or two rods. Tuning out the nylon nut on relevant pull-rod until it no longer engages the changer finger, is usually enough to test with changes the other player doesn't have.

Personally, I love to play around with various copedents, but I prefer to keep general functions of all pedals/levers as close to "standard" as I can, to make it easy to reverse modification and also to make it easy to play any PSGs with non-modified copedents.

Paul Buller · From: Louisiana, USA

I'm actually not interested in changing the GFI to Mr Green's exact set up...I was just thought I saw a trend with some top notch players using the right knee to mess with the E's. Turns out I was wrong anyway about Lloyd's setup.

BUT...I'm still thinking pretty hard about switching LKR and RKL around because of two reasons: I find it hard to access the "A" pedal (far left) and the LKR lever; the second reason is I don't use my right knee at all right now....so why not use it to lower my E's? Only thing I can think of that might get in the way of my thinking is I'm use to useing the volume pedal without levering with my right leg; maybe it might be hard for me to do both....don't know.

Perhaps instead I should try messing with the stops on the levers to better fit me ergonomicly. Maybe I should drop some cash for a new set of shorter legs....

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Maybe an idea to move the pedals a bit in - towards your right. Will make A pedal easier to operate along with LKR.

Pedals on a GFI can easily be slided sideways in the pedal bar by loosening screws holding locking pieces left and right of the pedals, and pedal-rod hook-up screw can be moved to the other side of each pedal. Lining up pedals for perfectly vertical pedal-rods going to the other side of each pedal, should put all pedals about 2/3 the distance between pedals further towards the middle.

Edited to add: Me also thinks it is a good idea to start learning and using the original changes on right knee levers. They are quite useful for playing music Smile

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Lots of Emmons set-up players have E lowers on RKL, [Had it there for a long time myself] and E raises on LKL. Pretty standard arrangement for many players.

Paul Buller · From: Louisiana, USA

Georg, I like that idea about moving the pedals right...the only thing I wonder is how it will effect my LKL E raisers. I suppose it is much more difficult to adjust the placement of the knee levers? And you're Absolutely right, I need to find some use for those right knee levers....I've been learning mostly by ear and a handful of YouTube clips, but haven't found a use for them just yet. I even have a LKV pedal which there is no way in hell I can use without lifting my foot completely off the ground so that I can't even think about touching the pedals at the same time. I believe the LKV is the "Franklin".

Jerry, thanks. I knew it sounded like a decent idea!

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The floor pedals were too far to the left on my Wife's GFI Expo S-10, too. Moving the pedal rod mounting stud to the opposite side of the pedals and then moving the pedal rack over, greatly improved pedaling and the two LKL and LKR knee lever access.

I would suggest you try this first.

There are good arguments for the knee lever that lowers the E's as you have it or the standard "Emmons" setup, and for moving the E lowers to the RKL (the Sho-Bud) setup. I've used it both ways, originally on the RKL on my first Pedal Steel and then on the LKR on a PP Emmons and now on my Franklin.

The E raises on the LKL is the most often used location, regardless of where the E lower knee lever is.

Lloyd Green does not lower the 4th string E.

Paul Buller · From: Louisiana, USA

I'm sure that moving my pedals right would help the LKR pedal as, currently, I can use it quite well if I engage the B pedal...but the LKL lever is then a bit out of reach. I feel that if it is a reasonable idea, one of the left knee levers needs to move. How do y'all feel about me removing the push/pull rod from the lever to the cross shaft, unscrewing the lever from the body and replacing it an inch over? I don't much like the idea of leaving drilled holes where my lever use to be, but I'm just thinking...anybody done that before?

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Paul, the LKV is the regular string 5 & 10 1/2 note lower - NOT "Franklin". The "Franklin" pedal lowers string 5 & 10 1/1 note down, and is usually added to the left of the A pedal.

I know some find the LKV impossible to operate smoothly along with left knee levers and the pedals, but for players with normal, unrestricted, leg/knee movements it is IMO a question of proper mechanical adjustments and seating position/posture.
With instrument height (adjust back legs), seat height, pedals and left knee levers adjusted right for the individual player, operating the LKV and LKL or LKR along with the A, B, C pedals smoothly in any combination and sequence, might feel pretty awkward at first but not be all that hard with a bit of practice.

I am short, and prefer to have right knee levers a bit further to the left than original on my GFI. Made two attempts at finding right position for those levers, and landed on about 1 inch towards the middle for both brackets.
Don't think I had to replace the lever-rods for this move - just push them over a little and reattach, but can't really remember and my GFI Ultra is at the other side of the pond so can't check.

I adjust levers on PSGs so close to my knees that there's barely a quarter inch free sideways space for my knees, and even less upwards before I activate the LKV. Works for me, but we all have to adjust pedals/levers a little if we want optimal playability - there are no "one size fits all" solutions.

Paul Buller · From: Louisiana, USA

Georg, so you're saying you actually detached the levers from the body of the guitar and drilled new holes at the new lever locations? Or was this a more minor adjustment?

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Yes, detached both right-knee lever brackets, punched the start for new holes (didn't drill) and screwed them in place. Maybe not the most elegant way to do it, but GFI use engineered wood in the top-plate/soundboard and it doesn't crack easily.

Thereafter I fine-adjusted all levers.

Kevin Barber · From: Marianna, Florida, USA

After reading all this, it seems to change what the RKL does currently, to make the LKR do,(lower E's I think) will take someone who knows how to change it and not for the faint of heart or a new player, like me.

I'm looking at a GFI ultra that has just this issue. Now I don't know how to play at ALL, but when I went to look at this guitar, I got the 1 chord open, then with the A&B pedals I got the 4 chord. When I went to play the B pedal and the LKR to get the 5 chord, I got something other than the 5 chord. I held down the B pedal and engaged the RKL and got the 5 chord. I guess this is a setup that some like, but I prefer to have the E's on the LKR.

How expensive would it be to get this changed to the way I want it. Is the way I want it the "standard" or is it standard the way it's set up now? I don't have a clue as to how the other levers are set up.

Sorry to sound so ignorant, but I guess I am. lol!

Kevin Barber · From: Marianna, Florida, USA

Also, the way the LKR sounds, it does what a 5th knee lever does, whatever that is. I know when I "played" another guitar that had the 5th knee lever on the left, that is what it sounded like. Probably clear as mud.

Maybe one day I will know what I'm talking about. LOL!!!

Kevin Barber · From: Marianna, Florida, USA

OK. I have been reading and re-reading this thread. The purchase of this guitar relies totally on the cost of getting the knee levers straightened out like I want them.

From what my thick skull is reading, you take a bell crank and re-align it with the knee lever you want to control that particular bell crank and connect possibly a different length shaft to it.

Doesn't sound too complicated, but I guess the keeping up with all the little parts and putting everything back together correctly in the same holes would be the part you really have to be careful of.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Take lots of before pictures, and I'd make a rodding chart of what's on there.
Exactly how you arrange the rodding chart is up to you, as there are several ways of doing it. I personally like numbering the bellcrank holes and lettering the changer holes, starting from the deck of the guitar and going up, giving you things like (pardon it not being in chart form, you could make it like a copedent chart)
Pedal A: 5-2C, 10-2B (if those are the assignments, my guitar is in the car for going to a jam session).
You can do it yourself, it's not hard, but just make lots of reference charts and pictures.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Kevin Barber · From: Marianna, Florida, USA

Thanks Lane!!

I may try to tackle it myself. If I get hung up or just totally get it out of whack, I can always ship it to the factory. hehe.

Thanks for your info!! I will do as you suggested.

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