Chord substitution puzzle

Steve Collins · From: Alaska, USA

I would like to hear what other folks would do with this. One of my band's songs has an ascending phrase that runs D / Ebdim / E-. I am playing 10 / 12B+LKR / 15A, essentially substituting a B7 for the Ebdim. Any other takes on how to play this phrase or other substitutions? Thanks, Steve

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

fret 10 no pedals (D), fret 10 with just the lever that raises E's to F (Eb Dim - or B7), fret 12 no pedals (E). These all use strings 3,4,5,6,8,10.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

With your D/Ebdim/Em (1/#1dim/2m) progression, Ebdim = Eb,Gb,(Bb)b is actually the top 3 notes 3,b5,b7 of the B7 chord, which is the 6th of D. So in effect, in your 'original' progression, Ebdim is a sub for the 6 chord (B) in a 1/6/2m progression.

Another way to handle this just on the 10th fret would be 10/10F/10BC. I often like the smooth voice leading on either the 8th string (move to the 7th string on 10BC) or 4th string, going from D to Eb to E. If this resolves to an A chord, then this is a typical 1/6/2m/5 progression, which is one of the most common jazz/pop progressions in the world and for which there are a multitude of approaches to sub chords.

Steve Collins · From: Alaska, USA

Thanks guys, this is such a helpful place to display my own ignorance.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Russ Wever · From: Kansas City

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

This sounds like the very standard 1 6 2m 5 change to me. You might be thinking of that Eb° chord as a diminished, but there's a good chance that the bass player could play it as B7 and no one would bat an eye. Here's why:

B7 = B D# F# A
D#° = D# F# A C

B7b9 = B D# F# A C

Guitarists and steel players very often mistake a 7b9 chord for a diminished because we don't have to hold down the bottom.

For what it's worth, my first instinct would be 10, 10F, 10BC (like Dave's above), but then I'd start looking for ways to play it lower. Keep in mind that the D#° is also a D7 without the D (notes F# A C). That fact sometimes makes it easier to find positions.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

10-10F-8D#
or
10-10F-10AB with 7th string.
I prefer the D# lever for minor chord construction.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Try this:

On any of the basic grip strings 10,8, 6, 5 , 4, and 3.

Fret 5 AB pedals down D major
Fret 4 E to F lever Eb dim
Fret 3 A pedal E minor
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Ray Anderson · From: Jenkins, Kentucky USA

Kudos to Bob Hoffnar, I am working on a Jimmy Day melody (Funny how time slips away) been working at it for about 3 days now and when I read this post as I usually do and try these changes to see how they sound and how nthey relate, Lo and behold this is the chord pattern that I had been desperatly trying to find (to no avail). Now I'm putting the melody together and smilin' big time. You guys maybe don't realize the help that you are to us that are in unexplored territory, keep putting it up and we will keep trying to use it. Very Happy

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I think about it kind of like Bob H. Sometimes using...

Fret 10 456 no pedals
Fret 8 456 AB split with the 6 string full step lower (if you do that)
Fret 8 456 lower the 4th string

Will Cowell · From: Cambridgeshire, UK

I think of the Dim chords as kind of harmonic "lubricant"like oil in a motor. I mean, they are a great way to get a movement started one way or the other, because they repeat every 3 frets.

So you could start like Bob Hoffnar's suggestion:

"On any of the basic grip strings 10,8, 6, 5 , 4, and 3.

Fret 5 AB pedals down D major
Fret 4 E to F lever Eb dim
Fret 3 A pedal E minor"

The Dim chord on the 4th fret starts a downwards movement. It's easy to think of the Em on 3 then. But you could play the Ebdim on 4 then slide it down to 1, coming back up to 3 for the Em. It adds variety and interest. It literally creates a "turnaround" so you could come back up to 5 for an A7 to create the sequence b0b referred to.

Or you could go:
5AB, 4F (raise E's), slide to 7F, 8E(lowers E's) = Em, then finish with A7 at 8AF (with or without the A pedal).
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

There are only 3 diminished 7 chords. You can start on the note D, move up a fret to D# or Eb, and move up another to E. But when you move up one more fret to F, you get all the same notes you had when you started on D, just in a different order.

What this means in practical terms is that any time you make a diminished or diminished 7 chord, you can move it up or down 3 frets. Harmonically, it makes no difference.

If you have the G# to G natural change, whether on a zero pedal or on a tunable split on knee lever that drops string 6 to an F#, you can also get a diminished chord by dropping the string to G and raising the 5th string to C# on the A pedal.
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Jack Aldrich · From: Washington, USA

The triad Bb E G is at the 8th fret of the standard E9 tuning. In addition to being a C7 chord is also a Bbdim, Edim, etc., chord. I use it a lot on my C13 tuning on my non-pedal steel. The other suggestion an this thread also work well. Also, the Ebdim substitutes for the VI chord (A7) in the I, VI, II, V progression. It's fun to use C, Ebdim, Dm, Db7, too. - Jack
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