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Topic: Thoughts On New Turbo Tuner ST-122a |
Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 9:50 am |
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I recently ordered a Turbo Tuner ST-122a and have had a few days to tinker with it. I think I ordered it on December 19th and it showed up at my door on December 24th. I have played regular guitar for a long time and only recently started playing pedal steel. I have used a bunch of guitar tuners over the years but this is the first programmable tuner I have ever monkeyed with. Now that I have played with this one a bit I don't think I would want to go back, certainly for the pedal steel I think the programmable tuner is really nice.
The copedent I am working with is at http://tinyurl.com/jeffsCopedent. That is basically the Newman setup plus my extra pedals and levers, which seems to work well for me. Until I find any reason to change any of that, that is what I am using.
I have the ST-122a setup with 2 separate tunings for the PSG. I have one tuning for the open strings and one tuning for all of the pedal/lever combinations. I considered putting all of that into 1 tuning but decided against it because I have some conflicts between them. For example the offset for my open second string D#4 is not the same as the offset for the D#4 on my fourth string + lever D. The tuner supports different offsets for the same note in different octaves but within an octave if you have 2 separate tunings configured for the same note, the tuner doesn't have any good way of knowing which to use when you tune 1 of those strings. You can program in the different offsets but then have to jump into manual mode and tell the tuner which note to use, otherwise it seems to pick the first one in the list. Rather than put everything into 1 tuning and have to jump into manual mode for certain notes I just set it all up in 2 different tunings. With that I can select 1 tuning to tune all of my open strings and then if I want to tune pedals and levers I select the other tuning (just press 1 button) and I can tune everything else. Quick and easy.
The tuner ships with Newman and Emmons tunings for E9 and C6 and has separate tunings for open and pedals for each so I guess there are a total of 8 tunings there. Because of space limitations I think you can only load Emmons or Newman but not both. The device ships with tunings for a whole bunch of instruments and is pretty close to full with all of those so to create my own tunings I deleted all of the ones like violins and cellos that I do not anticipate ever having any use for. The tuner has an option to reload the factory defaults so you can always get everything back to original but if you do that you will lose all of your custom tunings and will have to reprogram them in if you want them back.
Programming in new tunings is pretty simple. It is tedious, but simple. The tedious bit comes from the fact that you are inputting information into a device that has only 8 buttons on it. Selecting a note, an octave and the cents offset is very quick and easy but typing in the names for individual notes is more tedious and takes some time. Each note has a name that may contain up to 8 characters so I have names like "1st Str" for the 1st string open and "3rd+B" for the 3rd string with the B pedal. Entering in all of those names is the tedious bit. Once you get the hang of it you can rifle through them fairly quickly and of course once they are in there you never have to monkey with them again.
The strobe is very easy to read when tuning. I had been using Cleartune on my iPhone and 1 thing I found a little frustrating about that is the needle would often jump around pretty wildly making it difficult to dial in what I wanted. I could pluck the same string 4 or 5 times and 1 or 2 out of those 5 the needle would bounce all over. It was workable but took more time that it should. Another limitation with Cleartune is I couldn't program different offsets for the same note in different octaves so for those I couldn't tune the needle straight up. I could program the offset for 1 of the offsets and for the other I would have to account for the difference when tuning. For example I could program D# with an offset of -3.9 and then tune my open 2nd string with the needle straight up but then when I tried to tune my 4th string with LKR I would need to tune it 5.9 cents sharp to account for the difference between it and the open 2nd string. For $4 or $5 or whatever I paid for Cleartune I wouldn't complain. To be honest, when I ordered the ST-122a I wasn't really sure I would keep it because I wasn't sure the device would justify the price difference. I spoke to them ahead of time and confirmed that if I wasn't happy with it I could return it, as their web site says, and I was assured that was the case and that they would even pickup the return shipping. With that promise I was willing to give their device a spin. I have decided that I definitely want to keep it.
The thing comes in a pretty rugged plastic case that is internally padded so it can bounce around in your pac-a-seat or gear bag or whatever and be protected. In the case I think you would really have to give this thing a pretty serious blow to do any damage at all. For a tuner in this price range that seems like a reasonable accessory for them to include.
As far as I know the document isn't available on their web site but before I ordered the thing they sent me a PDF that is basically a supplement to the user guide with tips specifically for working with the pedal steel.
Roger out at Sonic Research was a great help with pre and post sales questions. I would say that if you are looking for a tuner in this class, for pedal steel in particular, I would encourage you to take a looksy at this tuner. Their offer to take the thing back and even pay the return shipping made the difference for me to be willing to give the thing a try. I didn't ask them about their return rates but I would expect they are very low.
All the best.
JSB
_________________
GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 10:30 am
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To each his own, but what relationship is your open 2nd string that it's NOT the major third to B?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 10:36 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| To each his own, but what relationship is your open 2nd string that it's NOT the major third to B? |
It is the major third to B.
Can you clarify the motivation to your question?
JSB
_________________
GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 11:14 am
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Is my 2nd string offset somehow confusing or potentially problematic?
_________________
GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Cartwright Thompson
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 11:22 am
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I've got an ST-200, and I love it. I don't know why anyone would prefer the ST-122a.  |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 11:28 am
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...so what are the significant differences that would make you wonder how anyone in their right mind could make a different choice than yours?
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www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com
Last edited by Jim Cohen on 27 Dec 2012 11:45 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 11:33 am
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| Cartwright Thompson wrote: |
| I've got an ST-200, and I love it. I don't know why anyone would prefer the ST-122a. |
It sounds like you are saying that there is something(s) about the ST-200 that makes it the only reasonable choice between the 2. Is that what you are saying?
I am not suggesting that you are wrong. I am interested in learning more here.
Thanks for your input.
_________________
GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 12:14 pm
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I'm anxious to hear what Cartwright says too. I recently bought the ST-122a and I love it. I honestly could see no reason to have the "stomp switch". My volume pedal has a tuner out, so I have the tuner connected to the "tuner out" all the time and just push the Power button when I need to tune, which is usually once or twice a night.
I'm hoping I made the right choice, but like Frasier Crane says, "I'm listening!"
Mike
_________________
MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 12:51 pm
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I have an ST122a. I also have an older ST122. The "a" model has a changed (better) detecting circuit. e.g. in the ST122 the C6th 10th string lowered to A is detected with "A2" set in the tuner. However, in the "a" model the 10th string A note must have the A1 programmed or it will not be detected. This would seem at first to be a negative but its actually a positive with the better detection circuitry.
I had a Peterson Strobe-O-Flip and had to use my own programmed tunings as the built in Factory Newman Tunings never seemed to be right. My guitar always sounded like it was out of tune. With the ST112a, I'm able to use to the preprogrammed Newman tunings and the guitar sounds in tune. The improved detection circuit in the ST112a is probably the difference. |
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Cartwright Thompson
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 1:00 pm
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I guess I'm just a stomp box guy. The 200 seemed much sturdier, I like the heavy duty metal case. I leave mine on the floor and tap it if I want to check my tuning. I play mostly loud clubs and I like to kill the amp when I tuning.
I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, to each his own. I think they' both do about the same thing. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 3:06 pm
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The ST122a is housed in a solid metal case, not plastic like the original ST122.
And, its made in the USA. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 9:29 pm
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I just couldn't see why the two D# notes would be different. Still can't, to be honest.
I guess I really wanna know why you have two D#s, when they both hunt the same interval.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 9:33 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
I just couldn't see why the two D# notes would be different. Still can't, to be honest.
I guess I really wanna know why you have two D#s, when they both hunt the same interval. |
I do not have a good answer, but I do have an answer. My only excuse is that I found it that way in the Newman charts I have seen. Those include the charts that came with my tuner and the charts at jeffran.com.
I am assuming from your question and subsequent comment that this is a non-standard thing. Is that the case?
Thanks for any input and advice.
JSB
_________________
GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 9:56 pm
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| Jeff Scott Brown wrote: |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
I just couldn't see why the two D# notes would be different. Still can't, to be honest.
I guess I really wanna know why you have two D#s, when they both hunt the same interval. |
I do not have a good answer, but I do have an answer. My only excuse is that I found it that way in the Newman charts I have seen. Those include the charts that came with my tuner and the charts at jeffran.com.
I am assuming from your question and subsequent comment that this is a non-standard thing. Is that the case?
Thanks for any input and advice.
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The chart at http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php shows the open 2nd string at 439 and the 4th string with a d lever at 440.5. If I understand the conversion formula, that is just about 5.9 cents difference, which is what I have in my copedent. I assumed that the Newman charts were somewhat of an accepted authority. I also assumed that the difference in offsets probably had to do with cabinet drop and striking a balance between certain combinations sounding right at the expense of other combinations sounding right. All of that combined with the fact that it sounds reasonable to me led to me to accept it.
Now I am left wondering if I happened to stumble across a bogus authority and now have a learning opportunity in front of me.
Is it the case that this approach is not very widely used?
_________________
GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 Dec 2012 10:57 pm
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I'd never noticed that in the chart.
I have always tuned by ear, making a note of my offsets, and using my chart. And my D#s have always been the same.
Since most people end up changing their Newman charts to suit their own guitars, I wouldn't worry whether or not you are following exactly what Jeff Newman wrote down
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 5:03 am Re: Thoughts On New Turbo Tuner ST-122a
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| Jeff Scott Brown wrote: |
| Rather than put everything into 1 tuning and have to jump into manual mode for certain notes I just set it all up in 2 different tunings. With that I can select 1 tuning to tune all of my open strings and then if I want to tune pedals and levers I select the other tuning (just press 1 button) and I can tune everything else. Quick and easy. |
Sounds useful, and I guess having 3 or 4 tuning presets programmed in to select between for tuning one PSG, won't be a problem?
I ask because on those of my PSGs that have the proper 2-pitch mechanics mounted, I have 2-pitch pedal/lever combo tunings. I tune them by ear (JI), but there are always (noisy) situations where an electronic tuner would come handy, and I hate having to look each pitch up in written charts while checking tuning. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 5:07 am
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| Georg, you can check out my ST122a at the January club jam. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 5:20 am
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| Thanks Jack. Looks like it will have to be in February or March though, as I most likely will be tied down on our farm in Norway until the worst of winter is over. |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 8:18 am Re: Thoughts On New Turbo Tuner ST-122a
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Jeff Scott Brown wrote: |
| Rather than put everything into 1 tuning and have to jump into manual mode for certain notes I just set it all up in 2 different tunings. With that I can select 1 tuning to tune all of my open strings and then if I want to tune pedals and levers I select the other tuning (just press 1 button) and I can tune everything else. Quick and easy. |
Sounds useful, and I guess having 3 or 4 tuning presets programmed in to select between for tuning one PSG, won't be a problem?
I ask because on those of my PSGs that have the proper 2-pitch mechanics mounted, I have 2-pitch pedal/lever combo tunings. I tune them by ear (JI), but there are always (noisy) situations where an electronic tuner would come handy, and I hate having to look each pitch up in written charts while checking tuning. |
I am not sure that I understand why the situation you describe above calls for 3 or 4 tuning presets but that aside (I expect I am just misunderstanding your description, and that isn't important), you can certainly program in 3 or 4 tuning presets and use them as you wish. The only limitation I am aware of would be storage space for the tunings. You may have to remove some of the tunings that are shipped with the device, which is easy to do and shouldn't be a problem unless you really need to tune violins, cellos, banjos, bass guitars with multiple tunings, 6 string guitars with multiple tunings, etc. I would expect that almost everyone will be able to find plenty of tunings that they don't need and can remove.
I hope that helps.
_________________
GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 8:45 am
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I bought the ST 200 and it is my favorite tuner ever. Super fast and accurate. I don't use presets though. I'm too lazy to screw with it. I push the pedals down and tune the E and A strings then I tune the rest by ear.
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Bob |
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Howard Steinberg
From:
St. Petersburg, Florida , USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 9:28 am
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I have had a 122a for a few months and have been pretty happy with it. I had a bit of trouble getting comfortable with the menu . I have been using the Newman offsets. I am curious as to how others have dealt with changes that are not programmed into the tuner. As an example the tuner shows the E9, second string going from Eb to D, but not to Db.
Where do you get the offsets from for the notes not already in the tuner, before programming them in?
Overall the tuner and customer service get a big A+ from me.
_________________
Justice Pro Lite (4-5), Justice D-10 (8-5)x2 , Quilter Steelaire, Hilton Pedal, BJ's bar. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 10:25 am
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| The 2nd string drop to Db/C# is the same as the 5th string raise from B to Db/C#. They are both tuned the same -13.8 cents. |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 11:06 am
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| Howard Steinberg wrote: |
I am curious as to how others have dealt with changes that are not programmed into the tuner. As an example the tuner shows the E9, second string going from Eb to D, but not to Db.
Where do you get the offsets from for the notes not already in the tuner, before programming them in? |
I am not sure I understand the question. You assert that the tuner shows the E9 second string going to D, not Db. That may be the case on your tuner but certainly doesn't have to be the case. You get to decide what pitch every single string + pedel/lever combination is supposed to map to. The default tunings that ship with the tuner (at least mine) account for the half stop right lever right and provides for both notes. I am not using the default tunings that shipped with the tuner. I defined my own (because I have extra pedals and levers) and my custom tuning also provides for both notes.
The tuner has some number of "tunings" programmed into it. Each tuning is a collection of notes. Each note has a base note associated with it (C4, B4, D#4, etc.) and optionally an offset (+3.9, -5.8, etc...). Each note can also have a label associated with it. The label doesn't effect anything. The label is just a label for the humans looking at the tuner. For example, if the label says something about the 1st string, the note could still be anything.
If your guitar has a half stop knee lever associated with the 2nd string, assuming there are no other pedals or levers that modify that string, there are 3 notes associated with the string. There is the open string, the half stopped lever and the full stopped lever. My open string is D#4 -3.9. My half stop is D4 -3.9. My full stop is C#4 -5.9. The tuner knows about all of those pitches. I have 1 note that is labeled "2nd Str" and that is D#4 -3.9. I have another note in the tuning labeled "2+Levr E" which is D4 -3.9. I have a third note in the tuning labeled "5A/C,2E" and that note is C#4 -5.9. That last label is a little cryptic but it makes sense to me. "5A/C,2E" tells me that note is associated with the 5th string plus the A lever, the 5th string plus the C lever or the 2nd string plus the E lever. Even though that is 3 separate things on the guitar, since all 3 of those result in the exact same tone (same note, same octave and same offset), there is no need for multiple notes in the tuning. One note in the tuning serves all 3 places on the guitar. The labels have to be a little cryptic because you only have 8 characters to work with, but it really isn't very hard to work with.
It happens that I have my open strings defined in a separate tuning than the tuning that defines all of my pedal and lever combinations, and the default PSG tunings that the tuner ships with does the same, but that doesn't really effect any of what I describe above.
If you follow all of that you can see that the tuner doesn't really know about pedals and levers, and really doesn't need to. It knows how to store a list of desired pitches and associate labels with those desired pitches. If the label happens to say something about a pedal or a lever, fine.
You would normally be using the tuner in Auto mode which means you just strike a note and the tuner will figure out which note in the tuner to associate the sound with, display the label and defined pitch on the display and the strobe will tell you if you are sharp or flat from that. I think the labels are really only useful when you are in Manual mode or if you are so far out of tune that the tuner is confused about which string you are tuning.
I hope all of those words strung together help clarify things and not the reverse.
_________________
GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 28 Dec 2012 11:59 am
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| In essence: I tune 16 pitches/octave for JI on some of my PSGs. Whether to have these pitches as part of 2, 3 or 4 presets on a 12 pitch/octave tuner, is a matter of convenience and what the tuner can handle. |
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