C6th Bar Pressure

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

I am wondering whether it is normal to need more bar pressure on the C6th than E9th. I started learning C6th last summer when I got a refurbished Sho Bud Professional (thanks again James and Ricky!). I noticed that the C6th needed appreciably more pressure on the bar to keep strings from buzzing than I was accustom to. The E9th did not. I assumed this was something to do with the nature of the beast (big heavy guitar + thicker strings on C6th = more bar pressure; or something like that.)

Recently, I picked up a Carter D-10 (thanks Bill Terry!) and, somewhat to my surprise the C6th requires just as much or more pressure as on the Sho Bud to keep strings from buzzing. This is not just a down-by-the-nut issue, it is true up the neck as well. Mainly it concerns the low to middle strings. If I pull the bar way back and keep the tip right on the highest string I'm playing (which is how I try to play anyway) it mitigates it a lot. But this doesn't help me for those fairly common wide grips on C6th. I tried using a 1" diameter bar, but this made no difference.

Does one just get used to automatically applying more pressure in those situations, or is it something I'm doing wrong, or did I just happen to get two very different guitars with the same quirk?

Dan

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I don't think I use any more bar pressure on C6th than I do on E9th. With the C6th neck closer to you it may just be the difference in the angle of your hand.

I've had 3 different steels, a Fender 2000 (D-10), a D-10 Emmons Push Pull and now the Franklin D-10 and never noticed or thought about it on any of them.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Could it be that the heavier strings on the low end of C6th require that we exert a touch more pressure in order to create a 'flat' surface (if you follow me). I can't say I've been aware of it but maybe that big fat 10th string sits considerably higher over the changer and the nut-rollers and 'lifts' the back end of the bar a little.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Peggy Green · From: San Jose, California USA

It may be your bar weight. Just a thought. Not enough mass in the bar gets you to start bearing down (adding mass).

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I don't find that there is any difference in bar pressure between necks when I play. I think the problem might be more basic. If you are clutching the bar or holding it with tension in your left hand you will need to use more pressure to make the strings ring without buzzing. This makes it so you need to hold the bar with even more tension which makes it worse. You can functionally play like this but it will screw up your tone, intonation and make your hands hurt. You need to find the tension and let it go. Buddy Charleton and Joe Wright spent a couple lessons working on only this issue with me. Holding the steel bar should feel about the same as a violin player holding the bow. Strong and firm with complete relaxation.
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Bob

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

You might try raising your seat.
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Rick Barnhart · From: Arizona, USA

I find a little more pressure on the frets near the nut keeps the rattle down, but up the neck a few frets, I dont notice any difference in down pressure. I use the heavy BJS 5/16" and 1" bars
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Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Thanks for the reply folks.

Bob, I don't think it's a question of tension in my hand: I play E9th just fine without any buzzing, hand fatigue, etc. Likewise I don't think it's the bar weight which works fine for me on E9th (and I did try the larger bar already). I do think there could be something to the height of the steel and/or the d-10 configuration that is changing my wrist angle and causing an issue. Having said that, the Sho Bud and the Carter are very different heights, and its the same scenario (no buzz on E9th and some buzz on C6th) on both guitars. For starters I'll try raising the seat per Tom's suggestion and see if that has any effect.

Peggy Green · From: San Jose, California USA

Regarding Sho-Bud - I once had an unresolvable problem like yours. It was the headpiece roller was too low for the string to contact the bar. Like it was a roller for a heavier gauge string. Or vice versa, a too heavy gauge string for the roller is creating a mound for your bar to rattle over. Or, there is a rattle in the physical body of the guitar.

PS I have owned 5 Sho-Buds and still have 2 of those. Just speaking from experience.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Raising the seat might do it. I find that if my wrist is bent from the neck being too high I get cramps in my hand after a few hours of playing.
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Bob

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

There is a greater variation in guages on the C6th that you don't have on E9th. When you extend the range and use bigger strings, this problem may come up, but it should only be bothersome at the first fret. From the second fret up, there really shouldn't be a problem (on a 10-string guitar). Guitars with more than 10 strings may be more bothersome because of the expanded nature of the chords and possibly the use of a longer bar that some players prefer. One thing to keep in mind is to only cover the strings you are playing. If you try to cover all the strings all the time with the bar, it gets very tiresome, and that leads to problems for most players. Experienced players likely use slightly more pressure on the lower frets, relaxing somewhat as they go up the neck (which prevents tuning and intonation issues). After playing for many years, this becomes second nature, and you don't even have to think about it.

If it continues to be a problem, guaged rollers are available for some guitars, and will certainly help this issue. Of course, when you play some else's guitar that doesn't have them, it's back to square one. Confused

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

I think it's just a question of getting used to a larger number of thickly wound strings than on E9th. I did some experimenting and I seem to automatically apply more pressure on E9th when just playing the bottom three strings. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that people who have played D-10 for a long time subconsciously apply a little more pressure automatically on the bottom five strings on C6th. In any case, that's what I have to accustom myself to.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I tend to agree with Roger and Donny- the slope of the E9th stings is fairly consistent while the slope of the C6th and universal gauges looks more like a saw wave from string #7 and lower requiring more pressure on the 1st couple of frets. Custom gauged rollers are available for all guitars.

David Graves · From: Indiana, USA

I have to agree with you Dan. I apply slightly more pressure on my C6 than I do on my E9th. Now one thing I've noticed is the angle of the upper arm with relationship to the forearm. As your hand comes closer to your body you loose strength by loss of angle. Though it's not a great distance, you still loose leverage when you come back to the C6 and even if it's just an instinctive move, you DO apply more pressure. I scooted my seat back to give my C6 the same distance I have with my E9 and didn't feel like I applied as much pressure as before, but it's still more than my E9th. I believe it's a combination of all the reasons mentioned. String size, angle, etc etc. Thats just my 2 cents though.
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

It may be the nut rollers has someway got switched around to the wrong strings. If they are fitted to each string size. This is a trick I learned in setting up machines. Check as close to the rollers as possible. Take a piece of thin paper. (1) Cut a piece of paper about 3 inches long and about 1/2 inch wider than the strings.(2) Lay paper on the strings and mark and cut so each strip is centered on each string. Cut but leave about 1/2 inch of uncut paper at one side.(sort of like a comb)(3) Lay this paper on the strings each strip of paper centered on the strings.(4) Now lay your bar or a good steel straight edge on the paper strips and clamp the paper snug to the strings. Now cut the end strip of paper off so the paper is in 10 strips caught between bar and the strings.(5)It may take tweezers, With normal bar pressure pull a little on each piece of paper. A string or 2 may hold the paper tight, you may have a string or two that puts no tension on the strings. These would be your buzz strings. you may have to move the rollers to align the strings so they are perfectly straight over the rollers. Good Luck

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