Why are the individual notes of a chord are not in tune?

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

With the bar at fret 5,
I pick strings 6 5 4.
When I check each of the notes individually,
(using my Peterson tuner)
they are all out of tune.
If I adjust the bar so C# is correct,
then E is flat and A is sharp.
There seems to be no way of getting them all correct.
Is this just the way things are on a pedal steel?
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Hi Hans,

There are a zillions discussion about pedal steel tunings in the forum archive, and if you ask 10 guys, you will get 11 different opinions. Larry Bell's website is a good place to start.

That being said, for a triad to "sound" in tune, you need to flatten the 3rd a bit, and the 5th should be a bit sharp. The tricky part is that it also needs to be the case with pedal A+B engaged... oups! That's why the Peterson tuner has some sweetened tunings, in other words a program with offsets that account for the specific needs of a pedal steel.

Charts with offsets and sweetened tunings are all good, but each guitar is different, to a point, because the guitar flexes when you activate the pedals. The Peterson tuner allows you to actually measure cabinet drop. For example, I know my guitar has a 4 cents cabinet drop. So taking that in consideration, I figured out what I need to do for the guitar to sound in tune to my ear, made a chart of it and I programmed my own sweetened tuning accordingly in the Peterson tuner. All this didn't happen overnight, and I still experiment from time to time when I learn some new chord voicings.

Best advice I can give you is read as much as can on the subject, then experiment for yourself.

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

Thanx for the reply Alex.

I had no previous musical experience when I started learning pedal steel at the age of 56. (1 1/2 years ago)
Therefore, "sounding" right is something I am most uncertain about.
My 'plan' included buying the Peterson.
I figured that if I used it to keep things in tune,
then with time, I would develop a sense of 'correct' sounding.
It did not take long before I could recognize when a familiar chord was not sounding right.
Perhaps at this point I would be best off just tuning the individual strings and letting the chords sound as the currently do?
I know there was a thread recently explaining cabinet drop and programming the Peterson.
It looked to be very involved and possible beyond my current abilities.
I guess the real concern to me is that I won't develop an ear for when things are 'right'.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

The sweetened tuning values are only meant to make the steel sound in tune (just intonation) without the bar applied to the neck.

For example, the E strings (4 & Cool

, when the bar is precisely placed over the 4th fret (assuming your fretboard is accurate) will give you an equal temperament G#, not a just intonation G#. So, if your tuner is set for sweetened or just intonation tuning, those notes will read significantly sharp, even though the strings are properly tuned using just intonation.

When you feed the Peterson tuner a G#, it gives you a reading that assumes you are tuning the 3rd or 6th string, which is a just intonation 3rd interval to make a sweet sounding E chord. So the value is very flat. It is not giving your a G# to use as the tonic of a G# chord, or any other interval of any other chord.

Hope that all makes sense.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

You are not alone, Hans, as virtually all musical instruments have inherent tuning issues that require the player to PLAY in tune, for if you tune it for one key or chord it will not be in tune when another is played.

For instance, most of the brass instruments have three valves: you can tune the first valve to a perfect whole-step and the second to a perfect half-step but when you combine the the two the resulting step-and-a-half is not quite in tune, the player must constantly adjust the lip muscles to play every note in tune. And they only have one note to worry about....

As Alex has mentioned, there are a great many threads regarding tuning here, and as many different approaches to getting 'er done. I would suggest that until you learn and play a bit more that you tune everything straight up on the tuner, using the harmonics at the 7th and 12th frets (if the note is not the same at these tow harmonic points the string needs to be replaced). As you learn more you may wish to flatten the thirds in the various places that they occur in your tuning, but not until you know enough about theory, your tuner and tuning techniques in general to develop and implement such a scheme.

You should at least know that there is nothing wrong with you or your guitar, music is math, but it's slightly goofy math and nowhere does this show up more clearly than with the pedal steel guitar.
Whoa!

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Your Peterson tuner is probably programmed to read "in tune" when a pitch matches a non-equal temperament of the open strings. At other frets, the notes will read out of tune even tho the guitar is in tune. At fret 4 or 6 for example the meter would indicate much further out of tune. That's an example of why I wouldn't use a tuner with programmed settings.
That said, I would expect the temperament of A C# E at fret 5 to be pretty close to the temperament of A C# E at open strings.

Another possible problem would be old or bad strings. Ideally the interval between to strings should be the same at every fret. But no string is perfect and so we tolerate a bit of error there. Also the intervals vary a little as we move the bar because pushing the bar down affects each string a little differently. You can check how bad these errors are by putting the bar at the 12th fret where the tuner should show the same as it does for the open strings.

Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

Dave, the last sentence of your post is priceless; wish I'd said that.
Hans, Dave's advice is solid. Be patient about your ear's development; it will take some time. Think about spending some time away from your guitar on pure ear training; it will pay off. Perhaps one of our resident experts could suggest the best way to go about that.

happy picking, Chris
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins

John Scanlon · From: Jackson, Mississippi, USA

Tempered tuning's a pain, ain't it? We're not alone - piano tuners have this same burden.

Don't know which Peterson you have, but I had an early one with no PSG sweetened tunings, and then bought a later one which had two PSG sweetened tunings - one with sharp Es and one without. I use the sharp Es one because Jeff Newman's system called for Es that were slightly sharp.
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Its a long and fun road you are on now. I wouldn't worry about what the tuner says too much. You could check the individual notes of the string section of the Berlin Philharmonic orchestra and there notes would look funny on a tuner also. It is much more important to get your hands and ears together and learn the neck. The more you play the better your ears will get and it will start making sense. Music as we know it is not even close to perfect. In other words there is no "correct". Chords sounding good and chords looking good on a tuner are 2 very different things.
_________________
Bob

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The short answer is that (assuming you use the steel temperament on your Peterson) those values are for open strings and once you put the bar down, things change, because the math gets goofy. As soon as you move the bar, STOP LOOKING AT THE TUNER.
It shouldn't, however, get very goofy for an A chord, since that's a chord in the chart (A G chord that plays in tune would look horrid on the tuner), so I suspect a PEBCAG error. Here's a couple questions:
1) is the bar straight (are the 4th and 8th strings a perfect octave apart)?
2) Is the out of tuneness something you're HEARING, or something the tuner is telling you?
If the latter, I'll draw your attention to the phrase in caps.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

Hans
you can also try to use a tuning chart like Jef Newman developed for his fixed tuning -- I think it is posted on his web site -- it may not be exactly correct for your guitar , but you may find that it helps you get a handle on this subject --
starting out on steel can be confusing , especially if your playing with other musicians - seems everyone has a different ear to being in tune , -- with or with out a tuning device

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Tune your E's up to standard, and then tune everything up around them.. Your ears will tell you when its right... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

What Bob C says!!!
JJ

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Bob, Hans had said he didn't know what to listen for as to what's in tune.
A common problem for one who's learning on their own, and like Zappa said, "writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
Hans, I'll TRY to explain what to listen for as you tune by ear.
First, tune only the Es and Bs. Now, play 5 and 8 together. They should sound "strong," with no tension. Now, while they're ringing, turn one of the keys, doesn't matter which one, doesn't matter which way. You should hear the solid strength go away, and tension arrive. Then, strike them again, and turn the key the other way. You'll hear that at one point, the tension goes away and it's good and strong. Now tune the 6th string with the tuner; then hit 6 and 8. This won't sound "strong," but "sweet." If you turn the 6th sharper, the sweet goes away, and will turn into the strong 4th if you keep going, but if you flatten it, the sweet goes away and turns to the sadness of a minor third (but m3 is hard to tune by ear.)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Having a lower measure of talent......., I find it somewhat difficult to understand and thus appreciate the multiple new methods of tuning six, eight or ten strings.

When I learnt.....we had a six note dime store pitchpipe. When that couldn't be located, we used the bar on a given string to match the musical note that we were striking on the next higher OPEN string. We could always use a piano's "E" above middle "C", or even an accordian, if need be, or the lead guitar when lead guitarists were real guitar players.

During the late 1930's and later up to about the 1950's, players of note like Roy Wiggins, Billy Robinson, Jerry Byrd, Speedy West, etc., all played fabulously in tune WITHOUT benefit of strobe or digital type electronic tuners.

What happened? During these most recent years, did the steel guitar become some sort of an instrument that simply went technically out of the loop?

Or, did the newer players just expect everything to be what they wanted with the push of a button or blink of a pretty light bulb? Did their failure to properly learn how to tune a guitar simply clutter up their minds with all of this gobbly gook about tuning one string in tune and another string out of tune, etc., etc.?

If my memory serves me correctly, all of this crap about cabinet drop and having to own and operate an electronic tuner device in order to play steel guitar, all came about with the influx of Rock & Roll 6-string, string stretching, garage band, self taught genius guitar pickers with their whammy bar and doo-wah pedals..........

Show me a record by Eddy Arnold where Roy Wiggins was EVER out of tune; or, JERRY BYRD; or, Speedy West.

It could be as simple as a cheap or bad set of strings or a flawed single string within the set.

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

You can only tune as good as your ear is developed to hear the pitch. All hi-end tuningdevices will work like your car-navigationsystem. You will get there, but you have no simple notice how you came there...
Train your ears to be in charge!!
regards, Johan

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Also, remember that it is never going to be completely accurate.

Western musical notes are not accurate. A way to look at it is how man measures time. If a year is an "octave" or scale with 365 frets, that is not really accurate because a year is actually a little longer than 365 x 24 hours.

Or, if you have equal sized two pots of water, one salt water and one distilled water (two string sizes or tensions) and you want them to reach a boil with exposure to the same heat, pressure and other conditions, they will not reach a boil at the same rate and temperature.

It is hopeless, so just do what your ears like to hear and make the best of it. Tune your guitar where you play it most, which probably means the area the size of a big ham sandwich above the third fret and below the twelfth is more important than open at the nut. And tune pedals down. And, don't get wrapped up in a scientific super duper tuner that will tell you more about what is wrong than what is right. And, do not play so many triads. And if you do, fall into them with arpeggio of varying timing. It is more interesting anyway.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

Ray - sometimes your sweeping generalities are maddening. Are you saying there are no great lead guitar players today - or "real" lead guitar players, as you describe them? That out of all the lead guitar players out there today, there are none who are "real"?

I'd guess, even in your preciously small, time capsule of genuine artistry & nostalgia, that not every lead guitar player was a "real" guitar player, by your standards. And for every Roy Wiggins, Billy Robinson, Jerry Byrd, Speedy West, there were many players that weren't up to muster, were self-taught, and just did what they could, just like many of us guitarists & steel guitarists today (with our pesky, overly descriptive names of our steel guitars and our horribly inferior stevens-style bars).

Instruments evolve, accessories evolve, musical cultures & attitudes evolve. You like to blame "Rock & Roll 6-string, string stretching, garage band, self taught genius guitar pickers with the whammy bar and doo-wah pedals" (what the heck is a "doo-wah" pedal, anyway?) for the deterioration of musical artistry, but maybe you should blame Chet Atkins, Bob Wills & His Texas Playboys, Johnny Cash, Floyd Cramer, Bill Monroe, Les Paul, Jimmy Rodgers, Hank Williams Sr , all of whom are cited as influences on rock & roll.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Don't rise to it, Chris - it's Ray's hobby.

Whoa!

_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
----------------------------------

Chris Walke · From: St Charles, IL

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I can easily understand it and I confess I've risen to the bait before.

Ray seems to have been a pretty decent pro player in his day and maybe he still is, but if he feels 'left out' of today's scene there's a natural tendency to denigrate the later generations and their methods. I confess that I - as an avid James Burton/Hank Garland/Chet Atkins fan as a boy - found, and still find, Jimi Hendrix a little hard to take but I'm smart enough to keep it to myself (except here - just this once! Very Happy

)

Keeping an open mind is one of the more difficult aspects of getting older so I've decided to give Ray a break from now on.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
----------------------------------

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I took it as Ray starting on "what the hell is wrong with learning to tune by ear?!?" (a valid point, and I tried to explain what to listen to in order to do that), and then sorta distracted himself into topic drift.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

And he's right, of course - ear-training is the key to so much and liberates us with any instrument. I do have electronic tuners, though, and I'm very glad I do when I pop a string in the middle of a show or I'd have to contact front-of-house and ask them to mute me while I replace it.

I have little patience with these so-called sweetened tunings'; there are too many imponderables at work (like bad or old strings) to be able to count on so rigid a formula. I get my 'E's (or Cs) n tune and use my ears from there.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
----------------------------------

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Since cabinet drop affects each axe differently, I tuned by ear, checked the offsets with a tuner, then programmed MY offsets into the tuner. That way I can fix tuning in a noisy environment. But I prefer by ear, it's faster and just as accurate
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic