Learning the Fretboard

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

My new steel will be here in a few weeks, a Stage One(I've been without one for a few years)
and I've been spending my time re-familiarizing myself with the major grips and positions, etc.

I never knew the fret board very well. That is to say if someone said "what is the note, 2nd string, 7th fret?".
I could certainly figure it out in time, but to just snap out "Bb" just by looking, no way.
Yes, I had to look that one up on Patricia Warnock's chart. Oh Well

It just seems overwhelming to me sometimes especially considering adding in the pedals and knee levers,
which is why I don't think I would ever consider a 12 string.
I mean good gosh, I don't know the 10 I've got, much less add in two more! Whoa!

So I guess my question is... how many of you know the fretboard forward and backward like that?
Or do you just know postions and some patterns and are good like that?

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

You can play a ton of good music on a 10 string E9 tuned PSG with just 3 floor pedals and 4 knee levers. Don't worry about what you don't have, just learn to make music with the tool you do have. I have a ten string E9 neck and I don't feel that I'm missing anything important. The lower notes on a 12 string Extended E9 are of minimal value when playing with bands. I would not buy a 12 string E9 tuned steel. Just my opinion.

Regarding knowing the notes in the fashion you described; I don't, and it is rarely a problem. I have to pause and think it through when someone yells out the correct name of a note, which is not conducive to spontaneous playing. In the heat of the moment I rely on the patterns that I have learned, and ingrained via countless hours of drills and playing.

I NEVER spontaneouely think, now I need to play a Bb. But I may think I want the sound of the dominant seventh, and I know how to get it in whatever key I'm in. Learning the patterns is more important than learning the names of the notes.

Once you know a bunch of ways to get a dominant seventh, it's easy to move your dominant seventh pattern(s) to whatever key you are in. (By "patterns" I would include pedal and knee lever combinations plus, of course, whatever strings are necessary to complete the "pattern.")

I have no doubt others will not agree.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Hi, Pete, while there is something to be said for learning all the notes by name, I find it most useful if you're pursuing reading standard notation (for instance, playing theatre shows with sheet music) or for communicating musical phrases, harmony, etc. from player to player.
My recommendation is to learn the major chord positions as grips (no pedals, pedals down, A pedal and E-F raise, E-lower) and learn those positions across the fretboard as scale tones. Example, any no pedals position: 5th Root 3rd 5th Root 3rd on strings 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3.
Once you know these positions this way, scale tones in between are easy to find, alterations to other chords like major to minor, major to 7ths, etc.
Fill in other chords as you learn or use them.
The main thing about this approach- it's how we actually play in live or recording situations. You don't need to know the letter names for the notes you're applying as chord changes are flowing by... but if you can hear a 1 moving to a 6m, and know how those changes are made on your guitar, you're golden.
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

To say it somewhat differently; I think it is of very limited value to try to memorize the names of the notes of the entire fretboard, with all the modifications made by the pedals and levers. That would be fairly overwhelming task with little reward.

However, I think it is a VERY GOOD IDEA to memorize the "patterns" as I previously defined them.

I visualize all the various pathways I've learned on the fretboard that can be used to link notes together to get certain predictable sounds. It's very much a visual instrument to me.

Dickie Whitley · Posted 13 Nov 2012 5:37 am

I'm going to go with Paul on this one, I don't think it's necessary to learn what note is at every position, nor do I think it's necessary to memorize every place you can get a certain chord. Learning the patterns of playing or "pockets" I think will cover a large percentage of the music you'll want to play. My 2 cents, YMMV.

John Peay · From: Cumming, Georgia USA

Pete,

Mark van Allen is too humble to toot his own horn, so I'll do it for him!

Get his "Theory and Number System for E9th Pedal Steel" and go through it several times. I can't emphasize enough what a spot-on course this is for learning the fretboard, positions, scale tones, patterns, etc. The (2) CD's (it's an audio course) are spent applying music theory and the number system to the E9 neck....with the key word being "applying".

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Well, this is a load off for me and it's the answer I was hoping for.

Paul, I'm also very visual, so patterns I can do. Sweet!

Mark, I have a chart I've made showing the Root, 3rd and 5th for No Pedals, AB pedals and AF pedals
for the major grips/ and chords. if fact I'll add it, might be helpful for others.
I think that's what you are talking about, right?

Dickey, thanks. I was never exactly sure what "pockets" meant. I had an idea but now it's clear.

Very helpful, thanks guys!!

Or put another way:

The ROOT is:
No Pedals = strings 4 and 8
A/B pedals = strings 3 and 6
A/F lever = strings 5 and 10

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Thanks for the heads-up John.

Mark, expect an order soon. Smile

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Thanks for the nod, John, and I do think my theory course would be a lot of help, Pete.
You are right on with your chart- you'd be surprised how many of the pros spent a lot of time doing this on band busses or in hotel rooms... now let's see, if I just added this lever...

Not sure if I understand your notation about the identical groupings, but for sure don't leave out 6,8,and 10. You'll notice then the two "wide groupings" of strings 3,5,8 and 4,6,10. Lloyd Green among others made great use of those. There are many other things that will start jumping out at you. For instance, if you arrange the positions in the order they occur moving up and down the neck (No Pedals, A&F position, Pedals Down) right away it will pop out at you that moving from one major position to another on the same grip is the same intervallicly as moving one grip higher at the same fret. (No pedals strings 8,6,5 moved up three frets to A&F strings 8,6,5 = no pedals 8,6,5 shifted to strings 6,5,4).
It becomes obvious that since, at the pedals down position, the notes comprising the 3rds of the chord are the ones that have been raised a whole tone with pedal A (on strings 5 and 10) that you can "half-pedal" A, or let off of it half way, to have minor or flatted thirds there, and hence a minor chord. On and on, and more interesting all the time.
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Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Hey Mark,

"Not sure if I understand your notation about the identical groupings"

I agree, it's confusing. I fixed it on the chart.

That's a neat trick getting minor chords that way...
thanks again for your help.

I look forward to getting your course.

Bo Legg · Posted 14 Nov 2012 7:06 am

I think a simple approach is looking at the neck in one key and for me it is key of A and move the fixed pattern up or down the neck to what ever Key.
Visualize the neck in Modes with Chord and Scale numbers.
Start with the main three you will absolutely need at what is commonly referred to as the Up and Down positions and progress from there. Note that the three modes are all at the some positions
The Ionian (major) ( I ) The Mix Lydian (Dom 7th) ( V ) The Dorian (minor) (IIm)
I illustrate this here using my spread sheet program in which I enter the scale under the proper letter and the scale appears in a neck view.

The Ionian (major) ( I ) A major

The Mix Lydian (Dom 7th) ( V ) E7

The Dorian (minor) (IIm) Bm

Amaj E7 Bm scales in the up and down positions.
*notes outside the bar are to be pull under by pedals and levers. A B C pedals and E F D levers to form the chord or play the scale.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think most players use the "easy way". That is, learn the various spellings of chords, and how they lay out on the fretboard. Since major triads are the 1-3-5 notes, and on the E9th, the open tuning has the 1 note on the 4th (and 8th) string, the 3 note on the 3rd (and 6th) string, and the 5 note on the 5th (and 10th) string. That will be true on the entire "unpedaled" fretboard. So, if you know that the open E has the first note of the E chord on string 4 and 8, then at the 5th fret, the note on the 4th (and 8th) string will be the first note of the A chord. And at the 8th fret, the 4th (and 8th) string will be the first note of the C chord. Likewise, the 3 note of the A chord (C#) will be on the 3rd (and 6th) string 5th fret, and on the 8th fret, the 5 note of the C chord (G) will be on the the 5th (and 10th) string. (I think I got all that right). Once you learn all the major chord stuff, you can move on, and add the 7ths, 9ths, and major and minor 7ths, and 6ths. Once you can spell the chords, and know where the various notes are on the strings, it's simple to figure it all out.

All this sounds complicated, but it gets easier with time in the seat. I don't really recommend looking at charts to find out where the notes are. Take it slow and easy, and try to just look at the fretboard and "see" chords, and lock them in your memory. Once you can "see" the chords, and recognize where the particular notes of that chord lie, then just repeat ad infinitum up and down the fretboard. Also, learn the inversions that the pedals give. For instance, pedals down at the 5th fret gives you the IV chord in the key of A, (a D chord), or it could be the II chord in the key of E.

I'm certainly no musical whiz, but when I can look at the fretboard and know what chord I'm playing with no pedals, it's a simple matter to compute what chords the pedals give very quickly. This little trick with learning the 1-3-5 notes, and with the I-IV-V chords will take you a long way. Smile

But if it all boggles your brain, just play the durn thing and have fun! Cool

Pete Conklin · From: Austin, TX

Donny, yeah, it boggles my mind a little bit but in a broad sense, I get it. It's one of the things I'm working on - 1-3-5 & I IV, V. Thank you!

Bo, very cool charts. That's quite a bit to chew on and I look forward to diggin' it. Definitely appreciated!!!

Joe Gall · From: DeLand, Florida

This is all good stuff, great topic, sure helps beginners like me that's for sure! Thanks!
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Been at this damn thing for a few years now. Not so sure that I'm getting anywhere but it is fun. Sometimes.

John Peay · From: Cumming, Georgia USA

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Even though I had some theory background, when I started on steel I learned just the open notes for pedals down and no pedals and all the other chords by position, as I think many players do. For example, when a minor chord came up in a song, I'd be thinking, "okay, that's an E minor... so if E no pedals is at the zero fret, then I go up three frets and press pedal A..." and of course it's the next chord before you do that "head math".
The good news: you can pretty easily learn the number system on your guitar, and train yourself to hear the chords in a song as numbers. Until you get into it, it sounds tricky- while you play an E minor by itself, it sounds distinctive, but it actually has a different, and recognizable, sound when used as a 6m (in G) than it does when used as a 2m (in D), 3m (in C), 5m (in A) and so on. If you take the time to learn chord positions as progression numbers... how to find 1, 2m, 3m, 4, 5, 6m, 7mb5 in their various positions (Hint, relate them all to the 1, 4, and 5 chord positions for faster memory access), you can fill in more exotic chords and sounds around that map as you progress, and trust me- you'll gain much greater comfort and freedom of expression within any given song.
Learning the individual scale tones in the same way is also indispensable, as you'll know how to change majors to minors, major sevenths to dominants, and so on. As you play and think in this way, you'll find yourself hearing a scale/chord tone you want to add or use, and knowing automatically where to find it in various positions in real time as the progression flows by, and that's exactly what you want to be able to do.
Takes a little head work and home work, but well worth the effort. Start by mapping out all the ways to play (and move between) the 1, 4, and 5 chords in a key like G... there are a bunch! And of course it's the same pattern for every key.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Stuart Legg · Posted 16 Nov 2012 1:45 pm

Years ago Bo and I worked out what we thought was the easiest way to visualize and uncluttered E9 neck for single line playing low maintenance country and blues songs.

Select the four places within an octave where you would make an A major chord and add two in between positions so you can play single lines up and down the neck without large gaps. It also gives you some slide ins for your across the neck single line licks. Of course you would move this whole thing up and down the neck like a template for other major chords.

Visualize it in numbers related to the A major pentatonic scale and the whole thing is easy on the eye and the mind as compared to dealing with the whole major scale.

Simply you can play the Pentatonic or the complete major scale in any of the A chord positions but just keep it simple and stick with the in between as pentatonic as shown here.

There is another part to this for low maintenance blues and rock. You basically move the whole template up 3 frets which would be a C major pentatonic scale or as we are using it as an A minor pentatonic played over the key of A or Am. You will need to learn where you minor chords are. I have a chart for this scale for the blues but I haven located it yet in my achieves. I guess it would be best just to stick with the major at present.

Jason Walker · From: New South Wales, Australia

Just wanted to thank you fine people for taking the time to answer these sorts of questions - I'm still learning new stuff everyday thanks to you all!
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

To echo and put my own spin on what Paul and Mark have said:
Rather than know that 2nd string, second fret is A# (the leading tone for B), you should know that it's:
The maj7 tone to B;
The 3rd to F# (5th string Root)
The b5 to E (AB pedal banjo roll)
The 6 to C# (either with BC pe
dals for C#m or C#Maj if you drop the B)
The 2/9 to G# (AF position)
If you drop it to D, it's:
The 4 of E (AB)
The root of A (B pedal with strings 1 and 7)
The dom7 of B
The b2/b9 of G# (AF position, we seem to have a handful of Armenians here)
The 5 of D, but that's just silly.
The b6/#5 of C#, seldom needed
Minor 3 of F#
Dropped to C#, you have
Root of G# (AF position, that way you can peel off the A pedal, dropping 5 yo the dom 7
2/9 of the F# (Es dropped)
3 of E
4 of D#m (minor chord with dropped Es)
5 of C#
6 to the B
Maj 7 to the A

Or, to quote Sinkler, it's not the note, it's how you use it.
Also, many of these I had to stop and think.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i've played and worked for over 40 years and i can show you where some E's are. never really needed to know the neck the way you're talking about. know your key groupings and chord patterns and you can figure out whatever you need.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I have noticed that two of the local newbee's I have spent time with recently were using a Boss TU2 tuner between the steel and v-ped, and any time they wanted to know what note or individual chord-notes they were at, they would just look at the tuner, which displays the current note ("Bb" or whatever).
Maybe a good tool for this type of learning.

Kenneth Kotsay · From: Davie/Ft Lauderdale, Florida

PETE CONKLIN, your chart, The Root in Major Chord for E9th.
Excellent, you illustrate the pick group of a chord using the, 1 (R), 3rd & 5th degree of a chord. Very important to know how the notes form in the picking arrangement. Your chart I considered to be an introduction level to pedal steel, very important chart to have on hand in the very beginning. 1st grade pedal steel school.

BO LEGG - looks like an advance structure of where the all the notes are found along the fret board, very good but will take time to get it into one's hard drive upstairs. Could be taken for pedal steel guitar bingo but on the other hand, the yellow highlighted chart is excellent. Yours could be rated as entry College Level

LANE GRAY - What you need to do next time is enter a space in between each instruction on what chord & it's structure you are talking about, looks too cluttered, you need space in between, maybe double space. I rate it as senior year high school.

Now for my charts, well even Einstein would have a hard time figuring them out.

Great stuff guys, keep posting this stuff, also don't take my post & suggestions too critical, I only want to post my opinion, you guys took time & effort to post these charts, job well done.

KEN

Morgan Scoggins · From: Georgia, USA

I have been a member of this forum for the past 6 years or so. I am in the process of switching from non pedal steel to pedal steel. I can truthfully say that this is the best and most informative thread that has ever been posted on this website.
Just great stuff from Mike, Paul, Bo and others.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Kenneth, I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but if the way I put it down came out hard to follow, I'm glad to put it another way, say grouping by pocket forms?

Uses for 2nd string 7th fret (although musically incorrect, I shall use "open" to mean unpedalled/unaltered, taking 7th fret as assumed):
Open/unpedalled: major 7th/leading tone of B open, also dom7 of B with half step drop, 6th/13th with whole step drop.

A pedal (G#m): 2nd/9th open, b9 half down and root with whole step drop (handy, both as unison AND allows you to drop 5 to the 7. These also apply to the A+F lever form, but I find it more useful against the minor

A+B pedals (E): b5/#11 open (banjo roll), 4 (or 11) with half lower, 3 with full step lower)

D# lever, minor (D#m): 5 open, b5 half step lower, 4 whole step lower (useful melodic drop): I LOVE THIS USE

D# lever, Major (F#): 3 open, b3 dropped a half, 2/9 whole step drop

A# lever (C#): 6/13 open, #5 half step drop, 5 with full step drop.

B+C pedals (C#m) the same, but they sound different against the minor

Is that clearer/more helpful?
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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