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Topic: A+F = hit or miss tuning |
Patrick Janka
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 8:11 am |
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| Hi, it seems have the time when I'm going from say, pedals A+B or pedals up to a chord inversion using pedal A and knee lever F the chord is really out of tune. I end up having to "pump" the pedals to sort of neutralize them to get it in tune. Sometimes it plays in tune fine, but other times it seems I have to nail the combo just the right way or one of the strings catches on something and is off. Is this the fabled "cabinet drop" I'm experiencing? Is this normal, or should I have my steel looked at? |
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Bob Blair
From:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 8:18 am
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| If the guitar is not behaving consistently that would suggest that there is a problem. Sometimes though the problem can be as simple as your foot still pushing the B pedal a little, making the third and sixth strings a little bit sharp. |
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Patrick Janka
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 8:47 am
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| Your latter assessment is definitely not it, because sometimes I put my foot directly on the A pedal without an ankle roll to check, and if it's out of tune I pump the pedals/levers to get everything reset. Guess I might have to take it in. |
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Dale Hansen
From:
Hendersonville,Tennessee, (USA)
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 8:58 am
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Patrick,
It's probably not a problem with the guitar.
First, get the 'A'&'F' combo in tune - with itself, by adjusting the 'F' lever to where the 4th string sounds good with the 5(A) & 6th strings.
Unless I misunderstood you, the problem is more likely to be with the bar/fret position. For instance, if you are playing strings 4,5,&6 (no pedals) at the eighth fret, and then slide up to the eleventh fret, while engaging 'A'& 'F' - You'll need to overshoot fret 11 by almost a half a fret, to make that inversion sound 'in tune'. It's just the nature of the beast.
_________________
Bessdang Gizmos - "An Equal Opportunity Annoyer" |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 11:46 am
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| Bruce Bouton, on his video tape, when he talks about tuning says the A/F will never be perfectly in tune. |
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Jim Priebe
From:
Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 4:39 pm
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Patrick
Good info there from Dale & Jack.
For many years I thought this was both a "me" and "my crappy steel" problem. I even wrote an instrumental that included the use of A+F a lot to get better at it. I gave it to another steeler and he just avoided that position and played it elsewhere on the neck.
After many many years(and guitars) the problem is still there (for me) however it is mainly when using it at around the 6th fret and not at the 11th or 2nd? So is it a parallax error of vision and you get the bar wrong at that particular angle? I suggest it may be 'cos if I do a "Joe Wright' and look at the ceiling I don't play it out of tune! I do have a "rest on the B pedal a bit" problem when rocking the ankle.
I've tried different temper tunings - no difference. Some days it is fine - others it isn't. I think it's in the hand and the "nut behind the wheel" but I take your point about the pedal/lever mechanics and must try that - perhaps by doing that you actually re-align your vision of the bar unknowingly.
_________________
Priebs GFI ('09)Short-Uni10. GFI ('96)Short-Uni SD11. ('86)JEM U12
www.steelguitardownunder.com |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 11:44 pm
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If you tune straight up the AF major chord position sounds fine.
If you tune Newman you will need a compensator or just get used to sounding out of tune. |
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Hans Holzherr
From:
Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 4:21 am
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| Dale Hansen wrote: |
| You'll need to overshoot fret 11 by almost a half a fret, to make that inversion sound 'in tune'. It's just the nature of the beast. |
That's some exaggeration.... If you tune your guitar JT, the correct overshoot is very close to 1/6th the distance between the fret in question and the next higher. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 5:53 am
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| I seriously flat my F change - 20 cents or so. I temper tune which means all my 3rds are slightly flat. This approach gangs up in the F change and I really have to flat that one. May be partially due to cabinet drop as well. In the end my A/F change is very in tune with itself, however to be in tune with the band, I roll the bar forward a bit. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 6:37 am
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I would be lost without the A & F combination.
It is necessary to de-tune the F considerably, however. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 7:09 am
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Erv, bear with me on this.
Temper tuning - To make a duad composed of the 1 and 3 sound in tune with no beats, I find I must flat the 3rd by about 8 cents. So right off the bat my G# strings are flat compared to all other strings because they are the 3rd for an open E chord.
Now let's pedal A+B together at the open position to make an A chord - the A pedal raises the B to C#. C# is the third for the A chord therefore, I tune the A pedal change flat by 8 cents.
Now lets pedal A+F together to make a Db chord. The F lever controls the 3rd now so it must be flat by 8 cents with respect to the 1 which is controlled by the A pedal which is already flat by 8 cents. Therefore the F lever change needs to be flatted by 16 cents.
Phew, follow that?
I don't know if anybody else does this, and I've never studied the Neuaman chart to see if it lines up with this approach, but this works for me. |
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Dale Hansen
From:
Hendersonville,Tennessee, (USA)
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 7:28 am
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| Hans Holzherr wrote: |
| Dale Hansen wrote: |
| You'll need to overshoot fret 11 by almost a half a fret, to make that inversion sound 'in tune'. It's just the nature of the beast. |
That's some exaggeration.... If you tune your guitar JT, the correct overshoot is very close to 1/6th the distance between the fret in question and the next higher. |
I'm not exaggerating.
Of course, I've never actually been so anal, as to have made the effort to measure the number of micrometers that I overshoot the eleventh fret. I prefer to allow my ear to be the judge. Hans is being over analytical, and a bit pompous, here. When you are playing the lower frets on the the neck, the compromise will be quite a bit more noticeable.
Naturally, it will be less, and less as you progress up the neck. The 1/16 'rule' That Hans proposes is pure garbage, because the increment decreases as you progress up the neck. 'Success' with this particular A&F combo are - A) What your ear tells you sounds right, and - B) Developing the muscle memory to locate the 'sweet spot' in multiple fret positions.
_________________
Bessdang Gizmos - "An Equal Opportunity Annoyer"
Last edited by Dale Hansen on 4 Oct 2012 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 7:31 am
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Jim,
This is how I tune my guitar.
It is the old Jeff Neumann set-up.
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 7:53 am
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Tx for the chart Erv.
Ya know.... it's generally validation of what I said.
Note your F change is down at 433, which appears to be the most flatted change.
I see your chart shows Hertz and I was talking Cents which are quite a bit smaller so i think my approach results is something quite close to the Neuman chart. |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 8:09 am
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There has always been an issue with the A+F combo and intonation on all steels. The E string runs a little flat sounding against the B string when that pedal and lever are used together, more noticably lower on the neck. The guitar is most likely not the problem. The steel can be tuned to compensate for it, but you'll lose out elsewhere up the neck and on the F lever when used alone. However, when you depress the A pedal or F lever by themselves do they sound in tune? For me I compensate by angling the bar sharp a bit. Fortunately I use A+F with 1 and 2 note moving runs moreoften and avoid it. It's when I linger around on one fret is when I need to compensate more.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Dale Hansen
From:
Hendersonville,Tennessee, (USA)
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 8:16 am
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I would simply say, - Forget about tuning charts. Use a tuner to tweak the E's, and let your ear be the final arbiter on everything else.
For the first several years, as a student of Jeff's, I used the 'Newman' chart. (In fact, the very same chart that Erv posted)
It did nothing but condition me to trust in some stupid meter, and into believing IT was correct, while my ears held a different opinion...
I finally wised up, when Paul Franklin gave me the more prudent advice, along with the freedom, - to 'trust my own ears'.
_________________
Bessdang Gizmos - "An Equal Opportunity Annoyer" |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 9:49 am
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| yeah...ears are the deciding factor. e-f needs to be noticeably flat. i only use fret markers for approximate location. the ears do the precision. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 10:00 am
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Without entering into another tuning war, I personally need to hear chords as beatless as possible. My tuning offsets end up fairly close to Newman's later revision (E's flattened). I can get every chord sounding very in tune (to me) up and down the neck, but as many in this thread have stated, the A &F position has to be played considerably sharp. Although it may go against the grain when using one's eyes to center over a fret position, it's easy when using the ears to slightly overshoot the fret. The bizarre thing to me is that different guitars seem to require different amounts of overshoot, and I've never been able to figure that one out!
Of course, tuning this way knocks out use of the open C# major chord with A & F, but not a big loss.
The best way to train your ear and hand/eye coordination for this "problem" is to play repeated sets of no pedals/ A & F position/ pedals down chord movements in various combinations over an (in-tune) drone note.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Patrick Janka
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 11:25 am
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| I took a closer look, here's what's happening. When I go from A+B to A+F, if I push LKL before I release the B pedal it snags onto it and keeps it depressed even with my foot off of it completely. I then have to release LKL, which causes the B pedal to drop back into place. It's definitely a mechanical problem and not user error. |
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Patrick Janka
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 11:26 am
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| I'll shoot a video of it if you guys would like. |
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Patrick Janka
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 11:44 am
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| I checked the undercarriage. Basically when I move the LKL it wedges it against the cross bar used for the B pedal disallowing it to move. I'm not exactly sure how to fix it myself as of this point. I'll post a video in a few minutes. |
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Patrick Janka
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Paul E. Brennan
From:
Dublin, Ireland
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 12:49 pm
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| Quote: |
I would simply say, - Forget about tuning charts. Use a tuner to tweak the E's, and let your ear be the final arbiter on everything else.
For the first several years, as a student of Jeff's, I used the 'Newman' chart. (In fact, the very same chart that Erv posted)
It did nothing but condition me to trust in some stupid meter, and into believing IT was correct, while my ears held a different opinion...
I finally wised up, when Paul Franklin gave me the more prudent advice, along with the freedom, - to 'trust my own ears'. |
This was my experience exactly. |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2012 1:17 pm
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Hello
Definetly that small horizonal rod needs to be taken up. (shortened) It looks like it is done at the puller(bell crank)with that screw. For what it's worth, that bell crank is usually a little more vertical in the resting position. Slide a little more rod through it and then retighten. You may have to adjust the stop afterwards. Looks like a Seirra???
Good luck. Should be fine. Ron
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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