Older MSA Slotted Couplings - Ivan?

Edwin Allen · From: Windermere, Florida, USA

In setting up a ~1970 MSA guitar, I'd appreciate advice on how to position the slotted couplings within the changer. This seems to be a key ingredient to getting the fulcrum points right for raising and lowering.
The couplings appear to be slotted by a circular (diamond) saw so that one side of the slot is longer than the other. When installed the longer slot can positioned up (towards the strings) or down.
In the diagram I'm showing this as "long slot up" and "long slot down".

So is there a preferred position for couplings in the raise and and lower positions for the changer to work best?
Do the positions as shown make sense (slot up for raise; slot down for flat)?

Ivan - how did your MSA-12 do on its first time out?

Thanks all. - Ed

Ivan Funk · From: Hamburg Pennsylvania, USA

Nice diagram.
Im not sure.
I put mine in like your drawing.
Maybe someone else who knows for sure will answer here.
My MSA took some settling in and fine tuning after the rebuild but now it plays great and sounds really nice.
The tone is much more rich and sweet than my other more expensive fancy steel which shall remain nameless.
Im going to use it on some more dates and maybe I'll remember to get some audio or video clips.

Post some pics of yours if you want.
It would be fun to see it.

Edwin Allen · From: Windermere, Florida, USA

Thanks Ivan - It sounds like the arrangement shown is working for you so I'll try that on mine. I have so many questions; like how are the knee levers supposed to be configured? Mine was not working when I got it, so how to hook it up properly is not always apparent. Your photos are helping a lot. I might ask if you could post some more detail of the levers, the tuning screws (what length are they; mine had none installed), the pedal cams and the overall arrangement of the pull rods. Several of the pedal cams on mine are stripped out where the ball connectors thread in.

Here's a link to some pictures before (from ebay) and after I received the guitar - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=227436&highlight=
It's a 14-string that had 12 tuners and 10 strings on it.
Thanks - Ed

Ivan Funk · From: Hamburg Pennsylvania, USA

Hi Ed,
Wow that is quite a machine.
I think that how to do the rodding and where to hook up the knee levers depends on how you want it set up.
Do you know what set-up (copedent) you want?
I was short a few parts so I built mine with 3X3 for now.
I'd like to find more parts eventually and build it back into a universal tuning with 7x4.
(anyone have old MSA parts they're willing to part with?)

Here's what I did with my rodding:
(starting with the longest ones first)
I'll take some more pictures tomorrow.

Ivan Funk · From: Hamburg Pennsylvania, USA

Hi Ed,
I would guess by the holes in your cross-bars that it may have originally had yokes for balancing the pulls?
Mine has no holes there so I just set it up without yokes.

The tuning bolts are socket head cap screws that are #6-32 x 1/2" long (I think)
They each have a brass collar.
By "pedal cams" do you mean the ball joints that attach to the pedals themselves?

As for the over all rod arrangement - I charted out my set-up and then started with the longest rods (and closest to the deck) and worked my way back.

Here are some pics of my knees set up as well as the other parts you mentioned.

I have E raises on LKL and E lowers on RKR
The other lever (RKL) raises the 9th string B up to D and lowers the 2nd string to D

I set it up this way anticipation finding more parts to fill it out with a full U12 setup.

Michael here http://www.psgparts.com/ has the MSA tuning screws, ball joints, and the final linkage to the knee levers (Sho-Bud Linkage assembly) you mentioned.

The only part I need that I can't find are the slotted barrels in the changer:
If you have extra barrels you want to sell let me know.
Thanks,
-Ivan

Tuning bolts:

Knee levers:

Changer with slotted barrels:

Edwin Allen · From: Windermere, Florida, USA

Hello Ivan -
Thanks for those great pic's and the diagram.
I haven't played PSG in many years but had a basic (student) Emmons E9 and played it a bit.
So with the 14 strings I'm not sure what copendent would suit me best.
I like being based in E since I think that way as a guitarist.
The sacred E7 is where I'm starting but I'm seeing where I want to make sure the E9 changes are there.

I think the holes on the crossbars were an attempt to secure all types of hardware to connect with the rods. There were 3 or 4 types installed when I got it.

On the slotted couplings, I have a friend with a machine shop who said he could make me a few. He's on vacation for a couple of weeks, and not high on his job list, but when they're done I'll let you know how they turned out.

The pedal cams that are stripped out are at the top of the pedal rods inside the front of the body(which in turn drive the cross bars).

Since I didn't have any tuning screws when I got the guitar, I had no idea that the brass collars existed. Can you describe their function (must serve as a travel stop)?

I wonder if the changer body is the same on our guitars. See how these photos compare with yours.

I've put the heads of the tunings screws against the black wall inside the end plate (in the top photo, 2nd surface from the top of the photo).
Does that correspond to the heads on your tuning screws?

Thanks, Ed

Ivan Funk · From: Hamburg Pennsylvania, USA

Hi Ed,
My changer housing is almost identical.
Yes the tuning screws bottom out against the outside wall of the changer housing (endplate end).
I think the brass collars are to get a more solid travel stop.
I don't know what to do about the stripped out pedal cams.
Maybe drill and tap new holes?
Mine look like this:

Let me know how the machined slotted barrels turn out.
I'd be interested.

Thanks,
-Ivan

Edwin Allen · From: Windermere, Florida, USA

The cams on my guitar are different as they are counter-bored which leaves a depth for only about 2 threads.
I'm going to try JB-Weld first on them (after a good cleaning).

This shot shows the various hardware connections and shims that were used on the crossbars and elsewhere.

I have to say with all the glamour shots on this website (the reconditioned sho-buds really get me) it's a little embarrassing to post this one. But I will say it's cleaned up and in much better shape now.

I'll keep you posted on the couplings. - Ed

Ivan Funk · From: Hamburg Pennsylvania, USA

Oh I see.
Your pedal rods have ball joints at both top and bottom ends. Mine just have hooks that go into holes at the top.
I'm not sure which part you are talking about that is stripped.
If you are talking about the hole where the ball joint threads in - one quick fix is to just use the other hole (if it still has good threads)
Pedal travel will be shorted and quicker (maybe tighter) but that can be a good thing depending on what you like.

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