My response to "WHAT IF"!

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

I believe it to be time for me to provide my opinion of the question I recently posed on the forum, “what IF MSA”?

Without going into specific detail unless asked, the following is how I truly believe MSA would have evolved, as well as what it would be today were it to be resurrected.

The most important and significant change would be a one piece cabinet made of a new composite material that is many times stronger, more durable and lighter than any thing ever imagined being incorporated into pedal steel guitar construction.

The advantages of a composite cabinet would be enormous. The result would be a consistently perfect cabinet, total integration within itself, specifically designed capability for sound, machining excellence, and the installation of mechanical and electronic equipment.

The requirements for a pedal steel guitar of the 21st century parallel some of the reasons why carbon fiber was chosen as the material in which the new 21st century strike fighter is to be made. (The Raptor) Just imagine, no cabinet de-tuning, either from pedal pressure or dramatic temperature changes, and most certainly indestructible from any reasonable event. A carbon fiber cabinet would resolve problems that have plagued pedal steel guitars since the day they were born. In addition, it would redefine excellence, quality and precision, by taking each to a level never before imagined for steel guitar.

The weight of a carbon fiber guitar would be such, that the weight issue would never again be associated with pedal steel guitar. The extreme lightweight would necessitate the introduction of a stabilizing system that would eliminate the guitar from moving while being played. Such a system is most certainly possible, therefore any adverse speculation concerning lightweight mobility and stability would never be considered a problem.

The most important issue would be sound, therefore the question becomes: “would carbon fiber have the inherent ability to create a sound/tone that is part of the charm for the steel guitar, and has so wonderfully contributed to it’s success”?

I’m absolutely convinced carbon fiber has the ability to easily achieve emulation of the great sounds/tone that make steel guitar what it is today. More importantly, it has the ability to dramatically transform and enhance the sound/tone from what we widely accept today, into something even greater while using the same sound/tone standard/basis. One can only dream of the sounds that are now within our grasp.

Unfortunately, sound itself cannot be compared with that which we can see, touch and evaluate on a scientific level, therefore the perception of sound reverts to that of an opinion.

However, it is possible to hear a great sound and create another sound with which to compare the two. In so doing it provides a basis with which to make experiments and conclusions that will offer emulation and unlimited enhancement possibilities. The application of carbon fiber in cabinet construction stands head and shoulders above all other materials relative to sound, and it has the flexibility to alter sound/tone through core design and density.

Carbon fiber has the ability to attain new levels of sound appreciation, which was not possible to achieve with yesterday’s technology. The total integration of carbon fiber has the unique ability to transmit vibration to the extent it can achieve “sound perpetuation within itself”, thereby creating sustain never before imagined. In addition because of the many core design possibilities, (as mentioned earlier) the perpetuation of sound is controllable and predictable, as is the tone itself.

You would have seen titanium used extensively in the MSA. For example, using titanium for eight pedal rods would weigh less that one conventional pedal rod, and each would be many times stronger.

You would have seen an innovation in bell crank design that makes quick and easy setup changes possible.

You would have seen a “sealed bearing operating system”.

You would have seen extensive laser technology being utilized. Laser applications are amazing, both from a production and cosmetic standpoint.

About the middle of last century pedal steel guitar was considered an innovation, and many were against it. Fortunately for pedal steel guitar, innovation continued and prevailed as it always does. As a result of innovation, we today enjoy a wonderful sounding mechanically operated instrument with incredible musical capabilities. In the meantime, non pedal steel guitar has not gone away, and it never will, it simply continued with a life of it’s own.

Negative attitudes and opinions by those who resist innovation/change, are a fact of life. Fortunately for those of us who are blessed to live in a free country, we are free to express our opinions. This is one reason why America is the most advanced country on the face of this earth. I also believe negative opinion serves a purpose, which in the end helps us all because “negative attitude breeds determination from those who see no limits to what we can achieve”.

Negative attitudes were present when the electric bass, electric piano and pedal steel guitar were introduced. It is my opinion that in most all instances, a negative attitude toward innovation, is a contradiction in both analogy and perspective.

As an example, there are those who’s life has been changed for the better because of innovation of the past, yet resist the innovations of today which will have the potential of a positive impact in the future.

My entire life, heart and soul has been steel guitar, and I would never be guilty of doing anything to deprive the steel guitar players in the future of any innovations upon which to enjoy and expand upon. That was my belief in 1963 when MSA was born, it is the same today, and will remain so in the future.

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

Interesting ideas. I know if my ears liked the guitar my back would love it.

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HookMoore.com

Bob Farlow · From: Marietta,GA,

Great post Reece. Since I work here at Lockheed, home of the Raptor, maybe we could also make the new MSA "stealthy".

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Reece: I think your post belongs in the Articles section of the Forum for the future posterity of all of us. It would fit nicely there with your other writings and be part of our history as documented by ourselves.

Best Regards, Paul

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

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[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 02 May 2002 at 02:14 PM.]

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Thanks for the great post Reece.

How do you think this instrument would compare in cost to today's guitars, given production/sales numbers that are currently being achieved?

It sounds expensive.

Sage · From: Boulder, Colorado

Thank you Reece. I admire your vision, which is grounded by vast experience and delivered with great eloquence.
The experience I have making steel guitars from carbon fiber confirms the claims you have made in the above text. It is great stuff, and when it is done correctly, the relationship of the fine fibers in the matrix simulates a close grained tone wood, with even higher clarity in it's sonic transmissability than most woods.
I can't remember the exact numbers but the difference in the thermal expansion co-efficients between carbon fiber and aluminum is gigantic- C.F. comes in at something like negative .03 and AL is +26.0.
Titanium sounds good on the guitar too (if it is done well), but it sure is hard to work with.
Stabilizing a light PSG is very possible. With inspiration and determination, problems are given solutions.
I especially appreciate your call to open the mind to the new tone qualities that will come from these instruments. IMHO the great instruments of the past became great because they offered beauty in the tone that had never been heard before. It was a structural change that made these leaps in beauty possible, not superficial attempts at modernization or style. The world goes around and we get the chance peiodically to make those leaps again. I thank God that I live in a time and place where I can experience that now. I wish you the very best and hope that you can bring your vision into practice soon. We will all benefit from it, futurists and traditionalists alike.
T. Sage Harmos
Harmos Steel Guitars http://www.harmosmusic.com/

[This message was edited by Sage on 16 January 2002 at 03:30 PM.]

B Bailey Brown · From: San Antonio, TX (USA)

Excellent post Reece! I find your ideas to be not only enlightening, but also very advanced. I myself have wondered about using carbon fiber as a basic component of a steel guitar body from time to time, but not being a builder, that’s about all I ever did. Wondered!

I never really thought about using Titanium for the pedal rods’, and in fact I wonder if it could be used in the frame as well? On the other hand, I guess my question would be much like Joey’s. I wonder how much the instrument would cost? A Steel Guitar that sounded great, weighed 15 lbs., but cost $8,000 might not be a workable deal! (And yes, not being a builder, I just made up those numbers because I have NO idea about the expense of these materials)

On the other hand, it sounds like you may have envisioned a “Stealth” steel here. Yikes…you could get through any metal detector in any airport in the world and never be questioned! Or, you might be able to sit on stage, be invisible, and no one would ever know who it was that played that last “clam”!!

The more I think about this, the more I like it!

B. Bailey Brown

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

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[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 06:57 PM.]

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Well, I for one would probably never be able to afford an $8,000 axe...but remember that old addict: Build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door...
I really believe the best will usually survive....and leave a legacy. There are about a zillion piano manufacturers, many quite reasonable....but the real professionals are always looking for that Steinway Grand....even though they may cost thirty or forty times that of a reasonably good instrument like a Yamaha or Kawai. The problem with steel guitar is still the same as it has always been...the potential market justifying expenditure of large sums of money for engineering, R&D, manufacturing, etc., just isn't there. Still, I wish MSA could be resurrected...or better yet, some of the patents MSA and others hold for various improvements on steel guitar might be licensed (reasonably inexpensively) to a manufacturer willing to combine, refine, and improve the guitar for the betterment of the instrument we all love.

Dave Birkett · From: Oxnard, CA, USA

Hmmm, carbon fiber and titanium, sounds like my driver.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

D@MN.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Hook M....Thank you for your comment!

Bob F....A "stealth" steel.hummmmmmmm!!!!

Paul G....Thank you so much for your humbling statement. I have always been an admirer of your writing ability.

Gene J....Thank you for your very nice comment!

Joey A....Thank you for the nice compliment. I would think a guitar such as I envisioned would be more expensive....but FAR superior for the reasons outlined.

Sage....Thank you for your very kind words. You stated your opinion of carbon fiber exceptionally well, and it's obvious you done so based on past experience. You are a positive and open minded person, and steel guitar needs people like you.

Bailey B....I appreciate your comments. A carbon fiber cabinet would eliminate the need for a frame. I can envision titanium being used for the rods.

Gil B. Your post was insightful and appreciated.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

When can I buy one?.....al

Jerry Hedge · From: Norwood Ohio U.S.A.

'Reese YOU ARE ON TO SOMETHING!!! Ever since day 1 of my taking this instrument up I've thought that a carbon fiber body would be what this instrument needs. I have even thought of checking carbon fiber out for speaker cabinet material because of the lightness vs. strengh factor.

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 17 Jan 2002 4:52 am

If you build it "They WILL come"!

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

The carbon fiber unitized cabinet for steel guitar makes a lot of sense. Many other industries look to the aerospace industry for innovation,___and why not? We have disc brakes on autos today because they have been used on aircraft for 60 or 70 years.

I still believe aerospace cable is a better way to sharp or flat strings on the instrument:
aerospace cable - instead of automotive
cams - instead of bellcranks
eccentricly mounted pulleys for adjustment - instead of turnbuckles
ball ends - instead of looped ends on the cables

I can see why we have a lot of preconceived notions about cables;___our minds have been so imprinted with the (then) popular universal design of the Fenders.

Rods under the instrument give us a mechanical "shortcut" to take care of a lot of the inherent precision movement problems of the changing assembly; but they limit us in making the guitar less complex for the musician. "Almost" all other instrumentalist don't have to be concerned with carrying a toolkit.

Rick

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Rick- You brought up some good points. Why should we need a tool kit? When as you say other instruments don't need one.

If as Reece says a carbin fiber cabinet would take care of the weight and strength.

How about a changer like the Fender PS-210 had in 1972, over 30 years ago.

You had 9 pedal or knees available for each neck. Just by throwing a switch. That would cover anything at all.

The only tool you needed was a screwdriver. With locknuts on the screws, they would hardly ever need adjustment.

I know that if Reece wanted to, he could build a great guitar again.....al

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

This is really interesting.

Can somebody offer a quick "Carbon Fiber for Dummies" course? On a very simple basis, I'd like to understand "what and how" from a construction/fabrication point of view.

Is it molded? Built up from layers? Does there have to be alignment of the fibers for tone & strength? How labor intensive is it as opposed to say forming a body shell like an injection molded plastic body or a fiberglass body?

Not that I'd ever even think of trying this, but out of respect and curiousity, just what's involved to get a good, acoustically magical, strong cabinet; prior to machining for cross-shafts, etc.

Is the Ovation guitar back carbon-fiber? Has anyone tried this on other musical instruments? If Stradivarius was alive today, do you think he might have a go with it?

Thanks to anybody who has an offering.

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

http://www.merlinbike.com/english/technology/comp_carbon_fiber.html
http://www.sevencycles.com/MaterialsCarbonFiber.html

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I don't think that a carbon fiber cabinet would eliminate so-called "cabinet drop", because part of the drop phenomenon is in the changer axle!

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Michael Garnett · From: Seattle, WA

Bob-

From what I understand about it from engineering and materials classes, carbon fiber starts out as a very expensive roll of cloth. The pieces are then cut to the right size and put into a mold. They are impregnated with what amounts to glue, and baked at hellacious temperatures in a very low pressure vacuum. When the baking process is over, the finished product is one strong mother. I think in the Aerospace industry they also layer individual parts as well.

On a historical note, I was thinking the same thing about Stradivarius when Gil was talking about Steinway and his pianos. The problem with Stradivarius was that he was the best engineer, and the worst engineer in his field, both at the same time. He created a violin that so far surpassed his competition in sustain and tone, there still is no equal to them today. The problem was, he was selfish. He didn't share his laquering techniques with anyone outside the family, and his secret died with him. I think if Stradivarius was alive today, first off, he'd say "Carbon? What's carbon?" I'd assume that, as a purist, he'd probably be one of those folks that wouldn't want to change his ideas. That brings up an interesting argument. A good rhetorical question... Did Mr. Emmons defect over to the "dark side" and become the champion of the first all pull guitars?

Just a few thoughts... The new steel can be called the Steinivarius... or maybe the Stradiway

Garnett

Doug Earnest · From: Branson, MO USA

A company called Rainsong makes carbon fiber bodied acoustic guitars. I had a chance to play one and was impressed. I sounded every bit as good as a good wood bodied guitar. In fact it reminded me of a good Gibson J50, kind of deep and punchy.

Am I to understand that a carbon fiber steel guitar body would not require a framework? Would it be thicker, thinner, or about the same thickness as modern PSG cabinets (about 9/16")? I know nothing about carbon fiber, but do find the idea very interesting.

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Doug Earnest
Zum2000U12,Sierra12,Sho-Bud ProII D10 PV DPC 750 ProFex 112E, Fender Cyber Twin

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Rick C….I believe your idea about cables has merit and should be pursued. I congratulate you for your open minded vision.

Bobby L….I’m confident the bending of the changer axle has a relatively simple engineering solution when compared to that of resolving the issue of cabinet deflection. I’m totally convinced cabinet deflection will be eliminated with an integrated carbon fiber cabinet.

Michael E….Very interesting comment.

Doug E….I’m not familiar with Rainsong guitars, but I would suspect you and I would be in agreement, that the sound they have is remarkable.

I am of the opinion an integrated carbon fiber cabinet would eliminate the necessity of an underside frame.

Possibly the cabinet would consist of a thin piece of carbon fiber on each side of a core which is specifically designed both in consistency and shape to perpetuate resonation and greatly enhance tone characteristic potential. I can envision a width of about ¾ to 1 inch.

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