should i flat my E strings slightly from 440?

Aaron Shively · From: California, USA

i have a boss tuner, and have been tuning my E strings to 440, and then tuning the rest by ear, making the B's pretty close to 440, and the others somewhat flat (by between 1 and 2 dots). it makes the middle strings sound good, but strings 1, 2, and 7 are posing problems. i can't seem to make them in tune with anything. would this be fixed by flatting the E's and retuning the whole thing by ear?

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

440 on E's B's and F#'s, pedal tune/ear tune the rest.
It's a 'Can O Worms' question in this town, because there are many ways and variance's depending on many ingredient's such as, Ear, Opinion, Player blah blah. There is a 'Jeff Newman' chart somewhere around here, and it works perfectly.
Most players got a little twist of their own on Tuning and Compensation etc but keeping those string at 440'ish will be a great foundation to build upon, otherwise you might be chasing your own tail throughout the spectrum of the tuning.
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A.K.A Chappy.

Bo Legg · Posted 24 Aug 2012 10:08 am

I think your problem is with the way you are hearing the notes out of the major chord on strings 1 2 and 7
If you lower the Es you'll come up with the same results except the whole thing will be flat.
Since your method doesn't seem to be working for you I would suggest tuning Newman or straight up allowing for cabinet drop.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I have used the Newman tunings (or a variation of the Newman tunings) for many years. Back in the 80's, when I first started using a tuner I tuned everything to "zero" with a Korg WT-12 and people kept telling me I was "out of tune". Jeff Newman came out with his chart, with the E's at Zero and I started using that and I've never had anyone tell me I was out of tune since.

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

My Jeff Newman charts show the E's at 442. Its there another Jeff Newman chart?

Bo Legg · Posted 24 Aug 2012 4:15 pm

Yes Newman added 2.5 Hz for each entry to his first chart so the open strings would sound more in tune when you used pedals or levers. That is the Es at 442.5 Hz. I believe he also changed the B string so it would be .5Hz flat to the E.
I went from Newman to New Newman to Straight Up to Straight Up 441 and tuning all the levers and pedals to 440. It's straight up allowing for my cabinet drop before I became satisfied. JI tuning to me means Just Idiotic.
All these different ideas in tuning are really just tuning out of tune to satisfy a person or persons concept of being in tune.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

We used to play music in TUNE..........for decades, long before electronic tuners were ever envisioned.

Was it the electronic tuning gizmo's that caused all of this tuning confusion.......or,

was it the pedal version of the steel guitar that has left us with this conflict?

We always tuned the guitars and fiddles to the accordian or piano (E above middle C) or whomever had the most strings and in our apparent ignorance, we all played in tune.

What went wrong?

Billy Tonnesen · From: R.I.P., Buena Park, California

Even back before today's Pedal Steels I always had to
adjust the tuning by Ear. Even if you tuned to the notes on a Electic Piano or Keyboard, I would fine tune by Ear. Anyone remember the "Tuning Forks" which you could hold over your pickup and hear the note the Fork was tuned to ? You had to give a little wallop to the Fork first !
_________________
Sacramento Western Swing Society Hall of Fame, 1992

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I would keep tuning the Es to 440, or even go a little sharp to compensate for cabinet drop. Then tune by ear as you have been. You can tune the first and second string against the fifth to make a smooth sounding triad.

Regarding the seventh string there are at least several choices, depending on what you play the most often, and what is most important to be in tune. I basically tune the seventh string to 440, which is close to the first string (actually the first string is a bit sharp of 440). I adopted this method of tuning the seventh string fairly recently. When tuned this way, you can play the string 5, 7 & 8 with the knee lever lowering the 8th a half tone, and the resulting B major chord is fairly well in tune. This opens up the bottom end of the E9 tuning.

Alternatively, you can tune the seventh string against the fifth string with the A pedal engaged. Tuning in that manner gives you a just intonation F# minor chord at the nut on strings 5, 6, & 7 with the A & B pedals down. The seventh string will be noticeably flat on your tuner, and as compared to the first string, but that minor chord will sound really good. For other chords made with pedals up, the seventh string is a second/ninth interval. Those chords don't have to be as precisely in tune to be passable. The significant down side of tuning this method is the B chord with the 5, 7 & 8 string combination with the 8th lowered a half tone will sound horrible.

In my experience minor triads that are a little out of tune are not nearly as noticeable as major triads that are out of tune.

The next step, which I haven't taken yet, is to put a compensator on the seventh string that is activated by either the A pedal or the B pedal. The compensator should slightly lower the pitch of the string, so you would tune the string open to 440, and then lower it slightly to bring the string in tune with the pedals down.

bill dearmore · From: Belton,Tx.,USA

Here's an Emmons tuning chart that is pretty good. I do vary from this with the 7st string tuned to +4 cents sharp but lower it 15 cents with the "B" pedal(compensator). Also, start by setting your tuner to 442 instead of 440

Bo Legg · Posted 26 Aug 2012 1:07 pm

Ray is it that you guys had better ears or did you just have better piano tuners back then.
The only way I can get close in tuning with a real piano tuned nowadays to (*%$*^ Tuning) is have them hit an Eb and calibrate my tuner to that.
I'd trade that Baby Grand straight up for a midi.

Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

yes... it's amazing what 'listening' can do!

Tim Heidner · From: Groves, TX

just mash the pedals, they'll go flat! Laughing

Jake Hoffman · From: Idaho, USA

This topic has been hotly debated since the time of Ptolemy, and continues today. Professional symphony orchestra players have been known to get in fist-fights over this. The twelve tone equal temperament took hold for a variety of reasons. It conveniently fit the existing design of early piano keyboards, and allowed for harmonic freedom at the expense of just a little impurity in every interval. Fixed interval instruments generally adhere to equal tempermant tuning. String players (fretless, like the steel guitar) generally adopt a method known as "just intonation", where minute fingering corrections are made depending on the harmonic overtones of the key signature, and the relationship of the other notes being played together. For the steel, this may mean small adjustments in the position of the bar "on the fly".

I generally tune my E strings to zero on a tuner set to 440, slightly flatten my G#s, and tune my pedalled A to 440 (zero). I tune the rest by ear ("beat frequencies"). I find the real headache lies with the dreaded B string (the "B-string Blues", I believe this is called amongst 6-string guitar players). I make adjustments with the bar, depending on the key, and the adjoining notes, as necessary.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Most guitar cheap digital tuners are made for straight guitars, which are always temper-tuned. That simply means that when you set one note on the tuner, be it the "E", "A", or whatever, to "straight up 440", none of the other notes will then actually be "straight up 440" unless you set each one individually as you use it. Of course, with a programmable tuner, you can set each note anywhere you want it, but I sometimes get the feeling that many non-pro players don't realize that "straight up" on an ordinary tuner is, by nature, "ET", but the wrong "ET" for pedal steel. This is probably why there is so much tweaking and so many different "offsets" used by steelers.

Bo Legg · Posted 29 Aug 2012 9:14 pm

Are your saying that on a cheap or mid-priced chromatic tuner, tuning each string to the 440 mark is not tuning straight up?
Well that is the only ET that I know of.
If you are refering to tuning to a piano, I don't think that is straight up because the piano is tuned with what they call wide octave stretching, that doesn't apply to PSG where you are only dealing with tuning 10 strings and less than 2 octaves.
I would calibrate my tuner to the A key of the piano (the one that is supposed to be 440) and then tune straight up.
Then if you sound out of tune shot the piano player!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The wrong ET? Huh?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

For what it's worth: I just heard Aaron play on stage and his intonation was remarkable good, particularly for a relative newbie. I've heard steelers with decades of experience that couldn't play nearly as well in tune. There is hope for the younger generation.

PS. He's a hell of a guitar player!!

Ransom Beers · Posted 30 Aug 2012 3:22 am

Hmm,maybe I should've invested in a tuner ,then I wouldn't have sold my guitar,damn I hate when that happens!!!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Bo Legg · Posted 30 Aug 2012 10:35 am

The PSG is a fretted instrument. You hold the fret (bar) in your hand and place it on the strings. Donny I'm not picking at you I'm just asking for your input and explaining why I tune ET as I know it.
I sound more intune with the guitar player when I tune ET. Sure it has some buzzes and sure my thirds sound a little sharp when no one except me is playing but when the band fires up I sound more in tune straight up than I did with the Newman method.
The bass aways sounds sharp to every instrument in the band. Maybe it's my ear or maybe it's the bass that needs tuned to something besides a cheap guitar tuner.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Tim Heidner · From: Groves, TX

Here's what I've been doing, seems to work OK.

With the Peterson Strobostomp:

On the strings that go flat with the pedals mashed, I try to get the wheel turning at the same speed(opposite direction) with the pedals down or up. Basically splitting the difference.

Seems like if I tune the E's completely in tune with the pedals mashed, then it's noticeably too sharp with them up.

I know I didn't explain that very well.
Sad

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