G-lever or X-lever?

Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

My Sho-Bud Pro III has the "Sho-Bud" setup (I know, "DUH", but I used to think it was the "Emmons" setup until I read somewhere this week there actually is a "Sho-Bud" setup that has the E-lower on a different lever).

Anyway, I find I hardly ever use the G-lever (raises F# to G) and was wondering if maybe I should convert it to an X-lever (lower the Bs to Bbs).

As I am a beginner, maybe I just haven't figured out the usefulness of the F# raise, but I keep thinking it would be nice to have access to a minor chord with A&B down.

Opinions?
Mike
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

My advise is to add a Vertical, put the F# to G raise there, and covert the other to the X lever.

The primary use of the F# to G change is to give you a 7th chord, but it too has other uses. However, it is almost never used by itself. It is almost always used with one or both pedals down. Since verticals are easier to use when you have some leverage, from an ergonomic perspective, it makes sense to put the F# raise there.

A lot of players put the B to Bb change on a vertical. In my opinion, this is a mistake.

If adding a vertical was not an option and I had to choose between the 2, I'd get the X lever. This has many more uses than merely making the pedals down chord minor. It is perhaps the most difficult of changes to understand, and very few players know all the wonderful things that can be done with it. (Mainly because they put it on a vertical where they seldom use it.)
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Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Mike:

Thanks for the useful info. As I said I'm a new player (about 3 months) so I'm still climbing the learning curve.

I don't even know if it is possible to add a vertical to my Sho-Bud (should have asked Al Brisco when I was there a month ago, but I didn't even know enough to ask the question!).

I do remember asking him if I should convert the 4th pedal to the "Franklin pedal" and he scoffed, saying "Flavour of the month".

I still have a lot to learn with the classic pedals and levers; just trying to learn as much as I can from the wealth of knowledge here on the forum.

Thanks again,
MIke
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Michael, given that you've only been playing 3 months, You may as well leave the guitar intact. The F# to G change is, as I mentioned primarily used to make a 7th chord (although it has other uses.) Now that you know this, you can start to use it.

What you need to do is learn all the possibilities in the 3 pedals, and the E raises and lowers, including all the chords you get when you use the levers with the pedals both up and down

Also you should practice using the B and C pedals to play harmony scales on strings 4 and 6.

In G, a harmony scale would be 1-fret 3 pedals up, notes B and G; 2- fret 3 pedals down, notes A and C; 3- fret 5 pedals down, notes B and D; 4- fret 8 pedals up, notes C and E; 5-fret 10 pedals up, notes D and F#; 6-fret 10 pedals down, notes E and G; 7 fret 12 pedals down notes F# and A; 9 fret 13 pedals up, notes G and B.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Change the 7th string pull on the G lever to lower the 6th string to F# instead. You'll find a lot of uses for that.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Thank you both for your replies.

Given that the instructional videos I have from Jeff Newman only talk about A&B plus the E lower and E raise, Mike P is absolutely right. I need to play the basics for a while.

I'm always guilty of getting ahead of myself and thinking of the NEXT thing I'm going to do, usually before I'm good where I'm at!

Nothing wrong with dreaming, as long as you wake up once in a while!

Mike
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The advantages of the 6th string lower to F# are 1) a V chord in the I position with E's lowered, 2) a minor chord when combined with the B pedal, 3) a 7th chord with A+B pedals, and 4) a whole bunch of cool country licks. It's more useful than the X lever, in my opinion.
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Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

B0b, please forgive the newbie questions...

Can't you do 1) 2) and 3) by just picking string 7 as part of the grip?

Mike
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

I've learned SO much from (trying to) follow(ing) the forum that I don't mind the differing opinions one little bit!

From years of watching and listening to 6-string players who all think they are THE ONE and tell everyone else they stink, it warms my heart to see all the great steel players on here getting along and offering great advice to us new guys.

If you can call a 55 year-old guy a "new guy".

Mike
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I am about to (for the 2nd time) remove the B to Bb changes from my guitar and put the F# to G changes back on. I used the F# to G changes a lot and really miss them. It is used for more than just getting the 7th chord with the A & B pedals.

I agree with Bob on the G# to F# lower.

Michael said:

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Personally, after 44 years of professional playing, I use the 7th string F#-G change MUCH more than the s.6 lower G#-F# change. But that's for MY licks, your lickage may vary.
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Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Well, if nothing else, you guys have shown me that it's a tough decision.

I think for now I'm going to leave well enough alone, learn what I've got on the guitar now for another few months, and then take another look.

Thanks for the inputs!
Mike
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

You now have info on the most dominant options for that 4th E9 lever. After 3 months, I don't think it matters a hill of beans which one you have on there, as long as you have

F-lever: E=>F
E-lever: E=>Eb
D-lever: D#=>D(and maybe =>C#) on String 2 and D=>C# on String 9

Personally, on a 4-lever guitar, I'm torn between 5th string B=>Bb versus 6th string G#=>F#, as I have both on any 5+ lever guitar and use them a lot. But if you can get good at half-pedaling the A-pedal to get the halfway-in-between C note, then the G#=>F# change becomes obvious, since one can split that change with the B-pedal to get G when needed.

Dickie Whitley · Posted 17 Aug 2012 1:55 pm

I can go along with Dave and the Herbster, I have the F# to G/G# change on 1 & 7. I also have a knee that lowers both G#s (3 & 6) to G. I love both of them.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I think that your preference in levers, Mike, is influenced by the fact that you almost never play country music. I've always felt that the full-step pull is what makes that country sound. If your goal is to advance steel guitar in classical music, you don't need to make that country sound effect in the middle register very often.
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Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

I am comfortable with my pedal setup but I agree with Mike that the B to Bd on a verticle could be used more. I do have the F# to G (1 & 7) on a vertical and use it quite a bit but the X lever not so much.

Lenny

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Bobby, what you say about my musical ambitions is true, and my copedant is based on the idea of trying to maximize the melodic and harmonic possibilities of the instrument, not making it easier to play licks.

However, I think the real reason I rarely use the G# to F# lower is that I didn’t have it for 25 years, and learned how to get many of the same chords and licks it yields by moving the bar and using other pedal changes. That, and the inconvenient location of the knee lever that I mentioned earlier.

So Michael, have we thoroughly confused you by now? Laughing

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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

If you've only been playing 3 months, my feeling is you should worry more about picking, bar, and volume pedal skills than adding changes. Those things will do more for your playing than any move or chord change you might add. Smile

Michael Hummel · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Yes, I am somewhat confused -- as Donny says, I should be concentrating on the fundamentals. My picking is coming along well, the bar work is okay. One thing I do have trouble with is palm blocking.

But (just ask my wife) when I take on a new challenge, I get rather obsessive about it and I want to learn and do everything possible right away!

I have no idea if I can even do any of these mods to my Sho-Bud Pro III (8p + 4k). Can someone explain a "tunable split"?

Thanks for all the help and advice so far.
Mike
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MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

A tuneable split is where you take 2 pedal changes to end up with a third change not available by a pedal or lever by itself. An example would be on string 6. If you lower the G# to F# and the hit the B pedal to raise it up a half step, you SHOULD end up at a G, but most likely it will be out of tune. So, you add another rod to the knee lever that lowers the string to F# onto the raise finger of the 6th string. Now you tune the changes like this:

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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

The split tuning we're talking about here is lowering the 6th string two half-tones (G#=>F#) and then raising it back up a single half-tone to G with the B-pedal. The problem is that the act of moving down two half-tones changes the string tension, and thus depressing the B-pedal may not give you an exact half-tone raise anymore. So an additional degree of tuning freedom is frequently needed to get both changes in tune. There are generally two ways to do this. The first is to drill and thread a hole in the changer to add a screw for a second stop - my Emmons Legrande and Zums each have these as standard equipment, and they really make split tuning easy. The second is to add an extra pull to bring the out-of-tune note to the correct pitch. As mentioned earlier, you need an unused raise hole on 6th string changer finger to do this, which I don't think is a problem on a Pro III when starting with the simple setup you are talking about.

This thread has an excellent explanation, with diagrams, of both methods of split tuning - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=104579

As you can see from my first post, I completely agree with Donny that if you have the critical 3+3 changes, whatever you have on the 4th lever is no issue at all. But you did ask a question, which people have tried to answer. Naturally, there's no universal agreement about which is the 'best' way to go, nor will there ever be.

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