Wear at Changer End

Sez Adamson · From: South Africa

I have an Emmons D10 Legrande. I notice that the changer scissors (5th String – C6th), are out of alignment with the rest of the changer scissors, when viewed from a vertical position above the changer. There is about a 2mm difference, where the top of the scissors extend back towards the end of the instrument.

Looking further down into the changer end (below the split tuning screws), there is a milled aluminium (aluminum) plate. It is part of the endplate casting, and forms a pivot for the changer scissors. The 5th string scissors have worn a groove in this pivot plate.

At this stage, it is not causing any problem with the tuning of the instrument. My purpose in asking is to find out if there is a ‘terminal condition’ that, in time, may develop, when the changer will no longer function adequately.

And if this should be the case, then what is the remedy? New endplate? The removal of the endplate and building up of the casting pivot plate (argonarc welding)? What grade of aluminum? Any other comments?

The first two pics are of the C6th changer, and the third pic of the E9th changer, where the wear is less apparent.

Many thanks,
Sez

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I think the problem could be eliminated with a new changer axle or you might even just give it a 1/2 turn. Chances are there is a flat spot worn on the axle.

Sez Adamson · From: South Africa

Hello Erv,
Thanks for the reply.
I did have the problem you outlined, some time ago. I firstly turned the shaft. I then decided to replace the whole mechanism (about three years ago), including shafts on both necks.
I don't have a tuning problem per se. The instrument is behaving very well in this regard, and I am careful to lubricate it every time I change strings.
What I do notice is that there is an aluminium (aluminum) 'plate' that is part of the end casting; which acts either as an end stop for the changer scissors, or as a pivot point. I am not sure which exactly.
There are some grooves in this end plate, and in particular there is a deep groove at the string 5 position on the C6th changer. Whilst not causing a problem at this time, I am interested to learn from the experience of others (perhaps Legrande owners) if this could lead to a 'terminal' condition where the operation and tuning of the changer is negatively affected. The questions that come to mind are: With the current level of wear (as evidenced in the pics), how long might it take for this wear to become problematic? (obviously depends on how much I play it, average 3 hours per day & C6th 95% of the time). What are the remedies? As I am no longer a youngster, I might expire before this condition manifests into a problem.
Any Legrande owners out there experience this; or am I demonstrating unnecessary paranoia?

Jerry Fessenden · From: Vermont, USA

I wsn't aware of any problem on the LeGrande... In fact I've not ever seen it on any of them ... It is a great guitar. My first approach would be to have the worn place welded & machined back . But, maybe it will not ever be problematic . The guy that welds for me can sometimes fill a hole and it doesn't matter if it is a casting or machined part . apparently the rod is rather hard aluminum.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Hmmmm,,,, Kline guy here, so I have no real clue. But the finger seems to not be lining up with the other fingers, 10th strings looks a bit that way too. If it were a Shobud, I'd think about wear on the back side of the hole for the axle in the finger itself. No longer round, but oblong.

"there is a milled aluminium (aluminum) plate. It is part of the endplate casting, and forms a pivot for the changer scissors. The 5th string scissors have worn a groove in this pivot plate. "

If you take off that string, can you rotate that "finger" to line up with the others? If you can, and there's no slop, it just might be that worn spot on the plate. Just thinking out loud, as I'm unfamiliar with those changers,as I'm from Kline Country.

Sez Adamson · From: South Africa

Thank you all for the responses. I also got a PM from a Legrande owner who has the same problem as I do, but more extreme. He is getting his sorted out soon, and I will learn from his experience.
@ Jerry: I think you are correct in that this end plate can be welded up and machined back to its original dimensions. I'll ask Emmons about the grade of Aluminum, and any other info that they think I should know about. By the way, I tried one of your guitars some time back at Bobbe Seymour's. It felt very solid and sounded great.
Many thanks once again.
Sez

Sez Adamson · From: South Africa

Thank you all for the responses. I also got a PM from a Legrande owner who has the same problem as I do, but more extreme. He is getting his sorted out soon, and I will learn from his experience.
@ Jerry: I think you are correct in that this end plate can be welded up and machined back to its original dimensions. I'll ask Emmons about the grade of Aluminum, and any other info that they think I should know about. By the way, I tried one of your guitars some time back at Bobbe Seymour's. It felt very solid and sounded great.
Many thanks once again.
Sez

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I've only seen this problem a few times, and it was always due to the guitar being constantly over-tuned. For some reason, when the guitar is over-tuned and has no slack in the pulling train, it puts undue stress on the fingers, and causes the axle hole in them to wear excessively. (It will also cause deep grooves in the finger stops on some brands.) Fixing is normally just a matter of replacing the finger, and sometimes the changer axle, too.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Yeah, Donny! That's what I was hinting at. I'd take off that string, and wiggle the finger back and forth to see if there's any slop. I've never had to change an axle, as they're hardened steel in most cases. But I could see that happening. But even great aluminum alloys aren't as hard as steel. And the 10th string looks like the same problem is starting to develop. But again,,,, I'm not familiar with that changer.

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

Hi Sez,
I had the same problem.....found out it was the inside of the finger that got eaten away..... So I replaced the axle, plus all twenty fingers on the E9 neck. Got it from 'Emmons'....had to wait forever as they had to make them up for the PP.
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John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I wonder how this stuff would work as an axle? Available as solid bar stock too. Might not wear the aluminum fingers.

http://www.qbcbearings.com/Press/CoredBarStock.htm

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Wonder if it would work for fingers too.

"Clearly, for acoustic purposes, bronze is the most favorable alloy.

The fact is, bronze is stronger and harder than any other common metal alloy except steel. It does not easily break under stress, is corrosion resistant, and is easy to form into finished shapes by molding, casting, or machining."

http://www.russianbells.com/founding/bronzealloy.html

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

John, my vote is YES! I have been thinking about this for a long time. As I am using brass in my fingers now, bronze was actually the metal I was wanting to use.
To that end, I have collected a bronze grave marker(came about it legally!!) I would say it is on average 1/2" thick X 18" wide X 40" long. It is waiting in my shop for when I get to start my home foundry that I have been dreaming of. I could machine 10 fingers just to try it out, but I did want to cast them just like one would cast a bell.
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Sez Adamson · From: South Africa

@ John, Donny, Bent & Nic.
Just want to say to say how much I appreciate your posts. I am following with interest.
Donny, can you tell me what you mean by 'over-tuned'.
I've had a good look to make sure that there is slack in the pull trains.
Would you be referring perhaps to the return springs being too tight? This is the only other possibility I can think of.

For the record, I use split tuning on string 5 (G - C6th). My P5 lowers it by a half tone, and Lkr raises it by a half tone. If I activate both together, I use the set screw behind the changer to adjust the note back to G. It's an integral part of my set-up, and I use it constantly.

Might this put an additional work load on the aluminum end stop/pivot point? (which is where I see the wear taking place (string 5)

Alternatively, would there be an advantage in changing to the split tuning method of using an additional pull train, instead of the set screw behind the changer?

Thank you for your discussion points and explanations. I am not knowledgeable in this area, and am grateful for you patience and understanding.

Regards,
Sez

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Sez,
I'd still pull that string off, and wiggle the finger around. If it's sloppy, moves back and forth on the axle, that's most likely the problem. Pretty simple test, and you don't have to disassemble anything. Anyway,,, that's what I'd try first
JB

Sez Adamson · From: South Africa

Hello John,
Thanks for your post.
I did as you suggested, and checked for movement on string 5. There is a bit of movement. I will wait till it's time to do a complete string change and then do a more detailed investigation. In the meantime the instrument is tuning and operating OK, so I will carry on with it until I get time to strip it down.
Many thanks for your comments.
Sez

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Donny hit it right I think. I've had that trouble with two Legrands I had. It is caused I think by feet slipping off pedals and the changer slamming the stop plate. I had one that had a deep grove and sometimes the changer would go down in the grove and you would have to tune and then it would start missing the grove and you had to tune again. If its not causing tuning problems, I wouldn't worry about it.
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D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Jack Strayhorn · From: Winston-Salem, NC

I've seen this issue a couple of times. Maybe caused by lack of maintenance and lubrication. It can be fixed using a JB Weld type of product. It will eventually cause a problem.

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