Good Direct Recording Sound AND 'Feel'?

Rob Stein · From: Woodstock, NY

I assume this subject has been touched on somewhere, and I’ve read through various postings discussing recording equipment and approaches, but I’m stuck on one issue and I wonder if anyone can offer some advice: what might be a good, and not too costly way of getting a natural sound – one that enables a good playing ‘touch’ and ‘feel’ - in the headphones (or monitors at low level) while recording?

Amp mic’ing’s not practical for me – I have to be able to go direct and keep it quiet – and I’ve tried every possible model and effect I have, using a Digitech multi-FX into a Zoom HD8 recorder; the Digitech works well enough for live playing (delay, reverb), but whatever settings/models I’ve tried for recording do not produce anything like what happens when the sound interacts with a room - but always gives that somewhat stiff, non-atmospheric sound that makes it difficult for me to get a good playing feel (even while the recorded results sound pretty good).
I know a lot of players use Pods- but how much better than the Digitech would they really be for this?
How about the Digidesign/Avid Eleven Rack?
Any other hints?
Thanks!
Rob

Bud Angelotti · From: Larryville, NJ, USA

Rob - If you like the sounds of the effects you are using live, they should do you right recording. 2 things to try, whithout spending $$ would be # 1, turn it up in the headphones. Record loud to your ears. Of course your actual record level should be proper, but just try using loud monitor levels since you are used to that. Loud monitor levels somewhat forces you (me) to use more attack when picking.
#2 If possible, record to two tracks for steel and pan them all the way to opposite sides. Gives it a wider sound possibly more what you are used to. Your effects, reverb etc. will sound more pronounced this way, you'll probably want to change 'em. IMHOP, this stuff is like the "tone discussions". If you have "good" gear, and you like the sound your gear is making, then it usually comes down to the operator.
Give it a whirl.

Steve Humes · From: Tampa, Florida, USA

Have you tried isolating the amp and miking? Stick it in a closet. There are actual cabinets built for studio use to isolate amps, but the closet trick works pretty well.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Getting a quality recording without a mic is easy if you have (1) a good preamp, (2) appropriate effects, at the very least a lush reverb with a long-ish (40 - 100ms) pre-delay, (3) a decent mixer, and (4) a good monitoring system.

You don't have to buy a boutique preamp, an old Furman PQ3 or Audio Arts 4100 parametric EQ will give you a quality pre AND superb eq in one rack space. On eBay for under $200 all the time.

Everybody's got their favorite effects unit(s), the point is to monitor it like you would want to hear it from an amp, if you are planning to add effects later at least put some reverb into the monitor bus to give it a natural feel while you are playing.

You don't need an expensive mixer, but a cheap one will most often sound cheap due to low headroom and high IM distortion. You do need to use quality cables and hook them up smart. Learn about impedance, balanced and unbalanced circuits and connectors, and how to optimize the gain structure in your tecording chain. Study up and get hands-on experience with dynamics processing (compression/expansion), delay processing and EQ. Old gear still works wonders in the hands of someone with a sound grasp of theory and practice.

A good set of headphones is a must, whether or not you intend to use loudspeakers to monitor your work. In fact, the more different speakers you use to assess the results the better and more consistent your recordings will become, as you learn what it takes to get "that" sound in any venue and on any system.

Steve Humes · From: Tampa, Florida, USA

Another thought is to practice recording yourself. Not an easy task for some to jump right in to, and you will always improve. It can be difficult to coax a good performance out of yourself when you are by yourself. Getting comfortable with the gear is part of the process. Gaining experience at being recorded in another.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

This is a common issue with recording ones self. The tendency when using headphones is to turn the steel up too high in the mix. This will usually cause you to play timidly. My advice is to turn the steel down to where you can just hear it...for the sake of intonation. You will play with more intensity, and your dynamic range will improve.

One thing you loose going direct is the "feeling" of the live amp near you. In your situation you can't avoid that, so you'll just have to live with it. Please remember you are looking for a good overall mix...that can be very difficult since you are one of the musicians...it can kind of skew your perspective of the mix.

One last thing...when using headphones, try to buy the highest quality pair you can afford. Don't buy the ones used by music enthusiasts...they color the sound too much, and don't use earbuds, no matter what!. You want phones that produce a flat frequency responce...NO colorization...like a studio recording engineer would use. You need to hear EVERYTHING happening in your mix, not just the cool stuff. And as Mr. Grafe said, listen to your mix on lots of different systems. If it sounds pretty good when doing that, you can be satistied that you've got a pretty good mix.

Sorry if I've rambled on. I used to be in the business and experience sometimes pushes me to talk to much. Oh Well

_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Rob Stein · From: Woodstock, NY

Thanks guys – that's a lot of great, sensible and useful stuff there, which I’m going to sort out, digest, then try to write a coherent reply here again shortly..
Rob

Rob Stein · From: Woodstock, NY

Ok- first of all, I really appreciate those posts – they really hit the essential aspects of this straight on.
Secondly, I do have a fair bit of professional recording experience, but whether it’s been with amp mic’ing or direct, the monitored sound never really gives me quite enough of the ‘feedback’ or feel of playing through an amp and hearing the amp (not through another layer), however the recorded result ends up sounding. So of course there’s always that bit of mental and feel adjustment which we take for granted, and which is usually acceptable – but the monitored sound I get going in to my effects and recorder at home, especially through headphones, is just not even close. I guess I thought that I might get away easy; with all the claims about realistic-sounding models, and all the players that say they use Pods etc, that it would work well enough in this respect.
The question is: do you have to entirely lose that “feeling” when going direct, as Mike W. suggests, or can you get some useful amount of it?

I might be a bit too sensitive to the playing feel thing, but I don’t think this is entirely one of those ‘tone discussions’ Bud - at least I wouldn’t consciously do that! I do think it’s more a matter of producing some kind of simulation of a live feel in the headphones, than one of ‘tone’.

Like with the old Rockman units: when playing electric lead guitar direct into PA or board, it was a less than usable sound/feel for most things, but plugging into the Rockman, with its exaggerated panning, compression and effects was like, I recall one of their ads saying - “playing Madison Square Garden through a stack of Marshalls” (and this was before Spinal Tap)! So I think that’s a case of having less to do with tone, and more to do with simulating a feel of playing in a room with an amp.

Anyway, the closet trick is certainly a good thing, but would probably still be too loud for my situation, and I’d be hesitant to invest in one of those quiet cabinets if I’d still end up with the same problem + having to buy some other stuff anyway- so I’m going to go with the aim of getting something as good as possible from direct.
I’ll start first with the monitoring volume, panning and effect suggestions, which address the simulation part of this - then, depending on how close that gets, start chipping away by getting the signal chain together, as per Dave’s suggestions.

I’m pretty good with effects, EQ etc, but probably do need to get smarter with the gain structure and dynamics processing aspects, which can help with the attack and touch aspects of the monitored sound. I am guessing that at least the preamp will be necessary for this.
As for the headphone mix, I normally do have the steel at least slightly on the low side, for the reasons Mike mentions, so that’s already OK.

Some of the other things touched on, such as mixing, I’m pretty well acquainted with – but the method I'll probably use will be to just get a good solid, natural sounding/flat performances on to the home rig, and track while monitoring, but not printing, any effects or other treatment - then add all processing later in a good pro studio, doing the mixing and mastering there.
As far as coaxing good performances out of one’s self for home recording, that’s another, very interesting subject – but at home there’s at least the advantage of not being ‘on the clock’, and being able to have the time to get a better take if necessary. And of course a learning process here is expected – including becoming a better player, with better command, while adjusting to whatever feel the home rig will give me.

Still curious to see if someone chimes in here saying how their simple modeling-based setup gives them enough of that good playing feel in direct-recording/headphone situations, or if someone has experience with one of the fancier units claimed to do that, like the Eleven Rack, and how it does the job for them. One good reason to look into something like that would be convenience/portability: if it worked well at home, then you could just take the unit with you into another studio and be able to get the same sound, without a lot of other pieces.
I did check out all the references to the ‘11R’ on the Forum, and listened to Bruce Bouton’s presets, which sounded OK enough, I think – but the thing I’m looking into wasn’t directly addressed.

Whew! Now that’s some real rambling – but I wanted to address all your kind suggestions and input here; now I’m gonna get to work! I’ll post later as I get some relevant results or thoughts.

Thanks again guys,
Rob

Brett Lanier · From: Madison, TN

Either direct or with an amp, I really prefer to play in the control room and hear everything through the studio monitors. There's a certain amount of mixing you do by pulling the sound out of the air with your ears I think. It may be due to a lack of knowledge and experience but I find it difficult to hear everything all at once with headphones.

Bud Angelotti · From: Larryville, NJ, USA

You'll get it to your satisfaction. The fact that you're open to advice from unknowns is a big feather in your cap. Smile

2 Things i'm sure you realize but I'll add them anyway. The closer one gets, the harder it is to be objective, and, if it was easy, anybody could do it.
Enjoy!

Rob Stein · From: Woodstock, NY

Any advice any time is very welcome!
I do track in the control room whenever possible, and lately have tried on a couple of sessions sending a line from my steel to a Micro Cube, set to 'Black Panel' with a bit of delay - set up next to me so I can easily adjust the mix to my liking, the steel being out of the monitors. This worked pretty well, and can probably be improved on with a better amp or maybe even a model in that situation. Anyone else trying this?
The home situation is still the challenge though - especially making it work with the headphones. Straight ahead.
Love that comment about if it was easy anybody could do it, Bud! I'm well aware of the objectivity thing, which is one reason for my plan to lay down just bare, unprocessed tracks and do all other treatments in an outside studio - any agonizing and fussing can be done later, in another place, with another set of fresh ears. That's the plan anyway!
Cheers,
Rob

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

What I do, if just adding steel tracks, is just play to the speakers in the studio and listen to my amp, the sound that I'm used to hearing. Don't like the headphone thing at all. I have never been able to hear myself good or have a tone that makes me want to play thru headphones. Of course, you have to be lined out instead of miked. Don't like the sound of miking on instruments anyway. Just loses something to me, live or studio.

We have had several big name bands at our venue like Exile and Riccochet and they isolated their amps in boxes off stage and miked them inside the box which works pretty well but there were no steel players, just guitar.
I once had a famous country band (won't mention name) that their steel player insisted that I use a mike for his amp rather than line out. I put a mike on his amp that wasn't connected to anything and lined out the back without telling him. It was a Peavey amp that had a line out. He really liked his tone and so did the rest of the band. Never did tell him any different.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Bud Angelotti · From: Larryville, NJ, USA

Henry, you're a baaad Man Laughing

Rob Stein · From: Woodstock, NY

Henry, that story is an absolute classic.
I don't like amp miking either, although there have been rare occasions where the right mic, set up in a good spot, in a particular room - gave a good sound. It just doesn't happen anywhere near enough to rely on.
When you record, using your amp lined out - is that a line from your amp, or a parallel one from your steel etc?

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Rob, I just use preamp out on a Nashvile 400 and on my LTD, I use the booster out which is a line level signal. We have a four piece band that I play out with and we always line everything into the board, guitar, bass and steel, no matter how large or how small the venue is. I once told someone, even if I play in a living room, we still run everything into the board.

I've tried the direct from steel to board and in my setup ( Studio One) I can't get the sound I like when recording. It all depends on the equip, preamps on board and such. A lot of players do run direct to board but with my high frequency hearing loss and my taste on sound, it just doesn't work for me. To each his own I guess.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I record direct at home 100% of the time and have been for easily a decade or more...I practice "direct" as well. Like anything there is a process which you need to be comfortable with. I do use an inexpensive ART Tube preamp on the front end of the recorder.

Perhaps dump an MP3 track of a song you like to play into your recorder, play it back and play along in the cans, a learn to adjust the levels of the track vs your Steel, along with effects as well. It won't take long but it will take a few takes...PRACTICE....

then record on top of the track.... listen back and you will HEAR what needs to be addressed...

Some nice comments above, I too do not have the Steel very loud in the phones, or the track for that matter, too much fatigue, but I do tend to "STRETCH" my listening and play assertively...rather than cautiously. IF the Steel is too loud in the cans over the track you will hold back, it's nature...

I wouldn't even bother with an additional effects processor, I would use some recorder reverb and be done with it.

Find what works for you, experiment...

good luck

t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

Currently, I use the pre amp out on my Peavey Nashville 400 into a tube preamp, (HHB radius 50 but there are many other options out there) into an Apogee Duet. So when I record, I hear the amp with the reverb from the amp, but the recording is dry. I will then take the steel track in my DAW (I'm using Logic Pro) and all the processing I want in an auxiliary track (delay and reverb). So I get the benefits of recording with my regular live sound while still having a dry track to work with when I mix. Best of both worlds.

Rob Stein · From: Woodstock, NY

Seems I hear things pretty much the same as Henry, but you’re the the first one to chime in with the other point of view Tony – being comfortable with direct etc. – and that’s great to hear.
I did try playing along with an mp3 through my recorder at one point, with the same setup described in my initial post (Mullen – Goodrich L10K – Digitech set to a Fender Twin model), and I recall it was, to my ears, almost acceptable at that time. Of the many possible variables here I can try, going back to that, and adding an ART Preamp would be a good thing to check out, probably a good and inexpensive 1st step.

Now, the problem is that much of what I want to record is solo steel – and without the ‘atmosphere’ offered by other instruments in the phones , the monitored sound of my steel in that situation is just not good enough, to my ears. Wish there was a good adjective for that sound..

I do know that this is a process, and with proper diligence I’ll probably be able to adjust, somewhat, to ‘that sound’ – but the reality is that with my ears, there’s just a huge difference between live-er type sounds and direct: I respond so well, let’s say, to hearing the ‘bloom’ of a note played live through my amp, in large good sounding room, maybe on a large wood stage; and play uncomfortably while hearing anything like what I’ve heard – so far – from direct.
But it’s useful to know that there are players who are more comfortable with it, good to keep in mind while I sort it out.

Henry, when you mention that a lot of players run direct into the board, what are they using, and how effective might some of those setups be, in your observation, in giving that good playing feel? For instance, if they're using a Pod, or similar, is that giving good results through control room monitors? Headphones? And if they're using good signal chain stuff including a good preamp, how does the sound from that type of setup 'hold up' through monitoring or headphones?

- Alex's post just came in just now - seem's he is describing, (to put it briefly!) aproximately the same amount of effort I foresee in producing a good monitored sound - so probably hearing things about the same. Also very helpful, and might bring about some future equipment questions Alex..
Great stuff here, appreciating it.
R

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Rob, I've recorded everyway you can I guess in studio situations and still had rather just hear my amp and play along with the song just thru speakers out in the studio in the control room. If you are playing along with the rest of the band live, of course you can't do that and have to use headphones. I've seen Junior Knight, Gary Carpenter, Ron Stafford and several other top notch players using headphones and just playing along with the rest of the band and are completley satisfied I guess with what they are hearing, but they have the ability to get it right the first time which I very seldom do. I just can't get enough of myself in the mix to tell what I'm doing and be right on the money. Then, if my mix of myself is louder, I tend to hold back.
I know what you mean by getting a good playing feel. Steel is a very psycological played instrument for me as I'm sure it is for others. If you don't like you tone or the feel for what you are hearing and feeling, it takes a big slice out of your ability and creativeness to play, or does me anyway.
Again I might say that the more expensive the equipment and better preamps and even better headphones all contribute to what you hear.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Steve Humes · From: Tampa, Florida, USA

Here's a thought. Let someone else mix it. If anything, you will get a different perspective.

Rob Stein · From: Woodstock, NY

Still wondering Henry, what some of those players you mentioned, who are satisfied with what they're hearing in the phones, are using on their direct signal? Preamps/good stuff? Pods?
As far as mixing, Steve - that's not a problem, but I always do enjoy working with another set of ears on a mix, especially when someone has a different way of hearing the same music. Although I generally know what I want to hear, it's a great learning experience taking something in another direction, as someone else hears it.
Though that's talking about the musical/subjective part of it only; as far as the technical part, I can do a pretty good job on one instrument, and the recording I'm planning will be mostly solo steel - but when it comes to mixing an ensemble, I'm of the opinion that should always be left to the best engineer you can get: the alchemy of properly blending instrument tracks (EQ, compression, effects, panning etc.) is vastly underestimated by many home recordists I think.
That probably opens up a can of worms..!

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

as a follow up..

I did 3 studio tracks yesterday, 2 on steel and 1 on Dobro...

The Steel tracks I did with the amp in the studio room and I was in the control room playing and listening on the monitors. I like doing this ...

but

for Dobro I was out in the studio playing and listening in the cans..we used the direct out from my Dobro ( Schatten RG-03 reso pup) and also mic'd it with a Shure KSM 32..

all scenarios in the same session

so in simple terms, be prepared

PS

By the way, the Schatten RG-03 is a great Dobro pup. I installed one about a week ago and with yesterdays session we were all very pleasantly surprised..make that shocked ! Warm natural tone...

Also, maybe some of you already know this, for studio sessions with the Dobro, use a keyboard stand, it will cut down on extra handling noises and helps with fatigue. I use a keyboard stand all the time with the Dobro, it really is a great asset when swapping Instruments during sets...it's always ready to go...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Rob Stein · From: Woodstock, NY

Oh yeah.. those thoughts on 'just playing' are on the money and well taken. Personally, if time and expense weren't an issue, I would choose to do all my own stuff not at home, but in someone else's studio with a good engineer completely taking care of the technical end.
I think this stuff does frequently get in the way - and because I'm particularly bad at juggling both tech and music, I figured I'd start off getting some good input first, then doing it as right as possible.
The different experiences and responses here are really helpful, already making some good adjustments in the way I deal with my monitored sound.
Very much appreciated!

Forum Index > Electronics		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic