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Topic: Volume Pedal or not / violin effect |
Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 12:39 am |
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Recently I read in this thread http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=230023 about the violin effect.
I start a new thread because the violin effect was off topic there.
Having started with pedal steel, I learned to use the volume pedal extensively and that´s how I use it for lapsteel. Just recently I sat down at the guitar and did not use the volume pedal and when I went back to it it sounded awkward.
I always thought that it was essential to get that mood, but reading about what those guys say in the taropatch forum, namely that most of the Hawaiian players do not use a volume pedal, I may have to rethink what I took for granted.
I do not know any contemporary Hawaiian players, over here I suppose you have to resort to the one that left plenty of material behind.
Does anybody know if Jerry Byrd recommended the use of a volume pedal to achieve a certain mood? Did he permanently pump the volume pedal the way the pedal steelers do it today or just to achieve that violin effect occasionally? Some of you may have seen him live.
So if all the mood and dynamics can be created without volume pedal, what sound or playing style or music type explicitly calls for that permanent volume pedal pumping on a pedal steel?
Thanks for sharing your experience and expertise.
-helmut
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 12:51 am
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Jerry always said to regularly remove your foot from the pedal to insure only using it when really needed.
He didn't do swells much, especially once he left Nashville, and he got the moods mostly with his bar movements. |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 3:12 am
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I suppose it is largely a matter of taste, and what sound you are looking for. Personally, I don't like to have whole lot of junk around just to play music.
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Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Norman Markowitz
From:
Santa Cruz, California
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 4:45 am
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| Ron Whitfield wrote: |
| Jerry always said to regularly remove your foot from the pedal to insure only using it when really needed. |
That´s the question. However, that was what I was interested to hear.
Norman,
I knew the youtube channel and the website of the person shown there. There is much interesting stuff to be found there that I had not known before. He is BTW non-coincident with a member of this forum with the same name, I checked that 
The ebow stuff sounds great, I am much surprised that some players allegedly can achieve the same with a volume adjustment of sorts. But I stay at it...
-helmut
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Norman Markowitz
From:
Santa Cruz, California
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 5:02 am
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Aloha Helmut,
At around 2:20 Jeff Au Hoy does a solo with violin effects. Isn't he just using his volume control here to get the effect desired. Since I am not a musician myself, I just thought he was doing it with his volume control. Please correct me if I am wrong. This belief on my part is based on what I have read about the subject. Maybe I misinterpreted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGx7lRcRiGs |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 8:10 am
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Violining is best done with a volume knob.
I use a volume pedal for different reasons (I don't use it all the time), probably carried over from my guitar playing, but I like it in a more Bill Frisell-ian kind of way, where it sounds as if the notes are coming at you from a distance and then disappearing.
I have another volume knob effect that I've been doing since about 1980 which involves echo. Eddie Van Halen did something similar on his solo piece Cathedral, but I learned it from the guy who invented the effect, Pat Thrall, a monster Rock guitarist.
Here is a short clip I just recorded to demonstrate. There are many, many other possibilities with this, I just haven't found the context for it yet with steel, but I will. 
The only things used here were delay and a volume pedal. I prefer to use the volume knob, but it's a little difficult to do on the steel I had available. The volume pedal was not very effective here, but when it is this is a very haunting sound.
http://soundcloud.com/ionahoopii/echo-volume
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Brian Hunter
From:
Indianapolis
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 8:14 am
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Pat Thrall = incredibly insane way beyond monster guitarist. For real.
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Brian |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 9:09 am About violin affects................
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Jerry Byrd used a volume pedal from his earliest years. It was home made and worked in reverse of what most commercial models did. You can learn more about Jerry's guitars and equipment by visiting the JerryByrd-FanClub.com site.
Taking your comment as stated......I personally believe ANYONE that PUMPS his/her volume pedal constantly lacks a thorough understanding of what it
is all about and/or possibly, a bad habit, developed thro' self=teaching, perhaps.
There are dozens of songs to listen to on the JBFC site and I'm confident you can hear selections that will answer many of your volume pedal questions. |
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J. Wilson
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 9:31 am
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This string is a relief for me...
I bought a nice Goodrich pedal and found myself pretty baffled when adding it into the fray. I always found volume pedals a bit daunting. They are always too loud or too quiet and finding that sweet spot on the fly could be a painful process.
By and large I am glad that I have one to make little adjustments to my levels when playing with a band but I certainly do not "ride it" the way I see some pedal players do.
That said, if any of you seasoned pedal vets know of a link that advises on proper volume pedal use with the instrument I would definitely be interested.
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If Music Be the Food of Love, Play On. -Shakespeare
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1941 Ric B6 / 1948 National Dynamic / 1951 Bronson Supro / Custom teak wood Allen Melbert / Tut Taylor Dobro / Gold Tone Dojo / Martin D15S / Eastman P10 |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 10:20 am
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| Norman Markowitz wrote: |
Aloha Helmut,
At around 2:20 Jeff Au Hoy does a solo with violin effects. (...) I just thought he was doing it with his volume control. (...) |
Yes, he plucks the string and then uses his pinky to ride the control. This imposes two difficulties on one´s playing: 1) a new technique to master and 2) a no-no with the wrong guitar / neck.
If you are used to a volume pedal, this technique is IMHO easier to learn and master.
| Ray Montee wrote: |
I personally believe ANYONE that PUMPS his/her volume pedal constantly lacks a thorough understanding of what it is all about (...)
There are dozens of songs to listen to on the JBFC site and I'm confident you can hear selections that will answer many of your volume pedal questions. |
Ray, since we do not know what to look for, it will be hard to track down. You can do all of us who are interested a sublime favor, if you point out a few positions of interest.
| J. Wilson wrote: |
This string is a relief for me...
(...)
That said, if any of you seasoned pedal vets know of a link that advises on proper volume pedal use with the instrument I would definitely be interested. |
Ah, by the looks of it not everything is clear from a start. This is like the emperor´s new clothes, where everybody was assuming something until some innocent mind put this at question.
So yes, if somebody knows of a video or is willing to write down some material, go ahead!
I can swear that in times bygone I have learned the beforementioned method from somebody pedal steel.
-helmut
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feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 10:45 am
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i dont see the vp on straight steel as being as important/necessary as on pedal steel. they are played differently - the phrasing is different. i know this doesnt have beans to do with the violin effect - but from my limited pedal experience, you are using the vp to control attack and sustain. on pedals,you often "ride" a string set and milk it up and down using pedals to make your interval / inversion changes. this is the beauty of the pedal steel, those long moving lines that seem to move counterpoint, adding tension and finally release. you often need to sustain a passage over several bars and the vp is the only way to do that (without picking the string again)
the straight steel is more pick attack oriented, you have to move the bar, change string sets, lots of stuff is done with the right and left bar hand.
the main vp benefit i find is the obvious - steel is both a lead and backup instrument and so you need a device to control which part you are playing - thats tough to do on stage with a vol knob.
Jerry was truly a master at this and his style of pushing the notes and playing "between" the notes really necessitated a high level of proficiency on the vp.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 11:03 am
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FYI, I placed a similar request in the pedal steel section. Not all players are at home with both systems:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=230270
I just tried a few things on my digitech. Those programmable processors are great to fool around with.
I use a low gain vintage tube amp model like a bassman at low gain and modify the amp volume with the expression pedal. Unlike a straight volume pedal this gives a sharp attack. Little happens most of the pedal travel until the very end. This will be akin to the action of Jerry Byrd´s reverse pedal or Mark Knopfler´s pedal.
The violin sound can be beautifully done.
I made the following observations:
1) to hide the attack and sustain the notes (what a violin bow or, indeed, an e-bow does) you have to pull back and then gradually fade in.
2) The average perceived loudness will go down, so you find yourself winding the volume up on the guitar for the part of the violining bit.
3) reverting to normal your guitar´s volume will appear too loud.
4) for normal loudness settings as say, between solo and backup part, this kind of pedal is rather uncomfortable to use, because its setting is much more delicate.
Now finally folks, the puzzle is solved why some players are comfortable with some volume pedal´s taper and some others aren´t, because their application differes remarkably!
This discussion is very fruitful to me, it opens up a completely new perspective.
-helmut
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Kay Das
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 20 Jul 2012 6:11 pm
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Helmut,
Tune into a recent thread in this section:
"Going Home": Mark Knopfler tune on Steel Guitar.
I played the intro using a Boss FV-300L foot pedal.
Hope you enjoy it,
Kay |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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John Mulligan
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Jul 2012 8:42 am
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| Nice sample, Mike, it sounds baroque. |
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