Fishman reso pup and Aura pedal questions

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

Does the new Fishman reso pickup work well with other pre amps like the Baggs Para acoutic DI? Or do you absolutely need the Aura ? Are the pup elements easy to install?
Thanks!
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Olli Haavisto
Finland

Mark Eaton · Posted 5 Jul 2012 10:05 pm

Many threads here on the subject, Olli - it's late so I don't have the energy to find links for you now but if you do a search you will find a lot of information.

The short answers:

1. The Fishman pickup is a huge improvement over all of the dobro pickups which have come before it (the Schertler Basik is a good one as well) and it will work okay with a number of preamps - but the advantage in running it through the Fishman Aura Jerry Douglas pedal versus not using it is huge. Also, you should use a preamp, but the Aura JD pedal is not preamp - it contains "images" of 16 studio microphones.

2. Though some "home luthiers" have installed it on their own with success, there have been plenty of stories of horror and heartbreak resulting in ruined pickups - very expensive. It is advised by those in the know to have it professionally installed. I wouldn't touch the job myself with a 10 foot pole. I also wouldn't take it to someone who is a good guitar tech but has no experience with the pickup - there have been reports of of folks like that ruining them as well.
_________________
Mark

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Don't forget you can also get it loaded with Auldridge images, too.
Not like I'm partial or anything.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Pit Lenz · From: Cologne, Germany

Hi Olli,
Mark's answer is right on the money:
Playing the PU and the Aura stompbox since four years, to me the dobro without the Aura sounds like a piezo-amplified sting instrument, but with the Aura switched on, it sounds like a well-miked Dobro!
The main advantage of the pickup itself is the much improved feedback behaviour, aside with the stompbox being matched with it.

As Mark stated further, having the PU installed by a dobro-experienced luthier is recommend strongly, as the fine tuning is crucial for the sound balance.

As far as I know, the Aura (Jerry Douglas) pedal has no user programmable sounds, just the sixteen (very good) presets. The Auldridge images that Lane is referring to can be applied in the user setup bank of the larger Fishman Sectrum DI pedal.

Here is the little dobro pedalboard I drag around, containing (in order of signal chain) the Aura JD, a LR Baggs Para Di with a Korg tuner in the insert path and a lot of duct tape . Aura`s volume, preset and mic buttons are set-and-forget to me, so I protected them for futher damage (had them smashed by cargo handlers before).
Looks shabby but is dirt- and bullet-proof, fast to set up and fits great in a gigbag's pocket.

greetings
Pit

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Pit, unless Fishman discontinued them, the Auldridge images were from Fishman and can/could be loaded at the beginning.
It wouldn't surprise me if that was a separate model, but probably could be loaded into others.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

The Douglas Aura pedal is not programmable. It will not accept downloaded images.

h

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

So you have to choose which images permanently at the time of purchase?
That sounds like an oversight.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

huh?

The JD Aura pedal comes with sixteen superb images specific to this pedal.

The Aura Spectrum (multi-instrument) comes with 6 reso images plus an empty user bank. I believe Fishman has 12 additional reso images available for this pedal.

h

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

Howard, since there are no reso specific luthiers anywhere near, would it be a good option to order a spider with the pups installed ? Is that possible? From Beard....
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Olli Haavisto
Finland

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

That's what I get for half thinking. Had one gadget conflated with the other
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Yes Olli,

Paul can slot the pickup and install in his "adjustable" clamping spider. The pickup is easily removed for adjustment. You will still have to mount the jack on the guitar and solder the leads to the jack.

h

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

If you want a do it yourself type set up...
I have an LR Baggs Para D.I. and put on a lace slimline pick up.
I am getting ready to do some shake down gigs with it on a cheap Regal with heavier strings 17-56.
So far it is surprisingly good.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Mark Eaton · Posted 6 Jul 2012 7:52 am

Ken, have you done an A/B comparison between your setup and an Aura-equipped resonator?
_________________
Mark

Mark Eaton · Posted 6 Jul 2012 8:11 am

Below is an essay from the outstanding guitarist from the state of Maine, Harvey Reid. I saw Harvey play several years ago so I would check his website periodically to see if he's coming back to California and a few years back I found this essay on his website.

Reid does a good job of explaining the Aura. He is not referring to the Jerry Douglas pedal here. The Aura is being used in a lot of applications these days. for example, Martin is having a lot of success with their Performing Artist Series flattops which came out in 2010.

The system does not make your Aura-equipped $179 Rogue resonator guitar sound like the costly Beard Jerry Douglas or Beard Mike Auldridge Signature models. You don't get to make "a silk purse out of a sow's ear" by now plugging in. You'll need some fresh coffee to get through this one or depending on the time of day, a cold beer - but Harvey does a very good job here of explaining the concept:

"The Fishman Aura is a new technology in acoustic instrument amplification that I consider to be a quantum jump forward in making instruments sound natural and loud. It is a different sort of animal than any processor box currently available, and is difficult for people to understand at first. To my ears, as somewhat of an acoustic purist, the signal-processing, EQ and pre-amp technology of the last 20 years has only succeeded in making the marginal and sometimes downright lousy-sounding piezo pickups sound somewhat less lousy, but I have never heard a pickup sound until now that I would call "rich" and "lush" and "lifelike." The door to a new era has been opened, and though it is only going to get better, the first sound images I have used with the first Aura boxes off the production line have immediately put me into a whole new world of stage sound, and can work just as well for anyone who takes the time to learn to operate and set up the Aura. There is no need to wait for the better version, though they will no doubt be here soon and be better. It already works and it works well.

I swore that I would never perform without a microphone and that I would never be happy with just a pickup, and now I am happily doing just that. I use the Aura onstage with 3 different acoustic guitars, a mandolin, banjo, autoharp, resonator guitar, mandocello, and people come running up after evey show to ask me what I am using for sound reinforcement. It is as simple as stepping on a footswitch to jump from one instrument to the another.

It appears to be similar to what is called "modeling" technology, but is quite a different approach. Modeling grew out of electric guitars, and the way it works does not apply that well to acoustic guitars. The playing field is not at all like electric guitars, where the body of the guitar is quite inert; the pickups are sensing only the strings, and thus behave very much like other guitars of the same brand when you plug them into amps and effects. If 30 people all plug their Fender Telecasters into Twin Reverb amps, a very similar sound will result. If 30 people all plug their Martin D-28's with a Matrix saddle pickup into a PA system, their sounds will be quite different from each other, and this is the essence of the problem. The modeling pre-amps are just fancy EQ boxes that store information about what a particular amp does to a signal that goes into it. This information is obtained from measuring the sound waves that come out of the amp. It works because the starting point is the same for all the guitar signals, and because the signal contains only string information, and there are no guitar body resonances and phase issues to interfere. Acoustic guitars, even if they are the same brand and model, are quite different from each other, and the pickups will most likely behave differently from each other even if they are the same brand, which adds two new levels of variation that will mean that doing the same processing to signals from 30 different acoustic guitar pickups will yield wildly variant final results. When I plug my guitar with my pickup into a "modeling" pre-amp, what I have heard sounds quite confused and unnatural, and I have not liked what I have heard from the ones I have tried. When you are on-stage with a vibrating and resonating acoustic guitar, no modeling technology I have heard delivers the full-bodied, lifelike sound I am after, and the Aura does.

The Aura takes a different approach. You plug your guitar pickup into a recording studio, and simultaneously mike the guitar, and record something that generates 2 different soundwaves, one from the pickup and one from the mike. The computer can then apply this information that tells it how the pickup signal differs from what a miked sound of that guitar would be, and apply it to the pickup signal. It has very sophisicated sound-shaping power-- over 2000 parametic EQ's (among other things) and it has enough processing power to modify your pickup signal in real time, while you are playing, into something that sounds dramatically more like your instrument than your pickup does. Because a plugged-in guitar in a performing situation is very alive and resonant, the way it works must be very specific. It does not make a Martin sound like a Taylor. It can really only make your guitar sound more like itself. It works by simply by plugging your pickup into a box. And there's a switch to bypass it, so you and your listeners can instantly A-B the Aura and hear the Before and After. It makes cynical non-believers shake their heads, and I can name you a pretty long list of people who have bought one within days or even hours after hearing mine.

The Aura does not contain the sound of your guitar-- it contains information that represents the difference bteween what your guitar pickup and what a mike in front of that guitar sound like. If you make an Aura image from your guitar, it can possibly sound great with another guitar if that guitar has a similar difference between what its mike and pickup signals sound like. This is a little confusing at first to understand. I have made an Aura image for my banjo pickup, and it makes it sound a lot like my banjo. If I plug my guitar into that, it does not make the guitar sound like a banjo. It just applies the same information that works for the banjo pickup- banjo mike transformation, and the end result when you play a guitar through is pretty awful and un-banjo-like. For people who have seen synthesizers turn an electric guitar into a pipe organ or a flute sound, one would think the Aura could make your acoustic guitar sound like something quite different. Because the body of the guitar and the top are alive and vibrating, their resonances clash with the electronically altered signals and with the sound coming from the speaker, and wolf tones and a lot of feedback usually result when you play through the wrong Aura patch.

Ideally the Aura should be "taught" what your instrument and your pickup sound like and then can "morph" the pickup waveform into something that resembles the mike waveform. The end result is of course dependent on what guitar was use to make the sound image you are using to enhance your sound, how it differs from the guitar you will use to play back with, how you input this information about the guitar, which includes your choice of mikes, playing and miking techniques. Those of us who use the Aura are still experimenting, and steadily improving the final sound that comes out of the speakers. The Aura uses specific sound images made from individual guitars, rather than inspecific models that generalize and say certain brands or shapes of guitars have certain tonal properties. To make such a custom image, you must record a sound sample with your guitar and pickup and a mike simultaneously, and send it to Fishman, they can make a midi file which is then installed into the Aura box with a computer and a midi connection and a free downloadable program available on their web site at www.Fishman.com. This is not easy to do currently, and it is something you can only do with help from someone who knows how to do it.

The Aura is sold as a guitar device, but I am using it very effectively with autoharp, banjo, mandolin, bouzouki, mandocello, and resonator guitar, and have just done the first tests with a fiddle, and it seems to work equivalently with all of them. 12 of the 16 sound images in the Aura can be user-programmed, and their web site contains many downloadable files that you can install into your Aura even if you can't yet make the custom files from your individual instruments.

The Aura technology is designed to use with a saddle-style piezo pickup, and has significantly more limited effectiveness with a magnetic, body-mount or bridge-plate pickup. Since it is just a box you plug into, there is no need to get rid of anything you already have, and it is as easy as plugging into it and playing once you have set up the parameters and loaded or selected the sound images. It has volume and tone controls, a bypass switch & mute switch, a built-in tuner, compressors and direct box, so it is a self-contained unit. It is pretty heavy as stomp-boxes go, sits on the floor, and is designed to operate with footswiches. It is somewhat awkward to operate its knobs on the floor, and will need some refinement of its interface before it is perfect, but for a first generation new technology it really works well.

The Aura technology, surprisingly, is not confused by playing fast or hard or percussively or bending strings, playing slide etc. The most percussive styles of playing such as hard-driving flatpicking or string-snapping blues have always been the hardest ones to capture with a pickup, even though they are the loudest sounds in the living room or over a mike. The Aura does an amazing job with them, and I am now performing with styles of playing I had stopped using on stage because they amplified so poorly.

After using a "Blender" stage set-up for the last 15 years, combining a pickup with an on-board mini-mike on the instrument, I have been pretty happy, though when you need to get louder, you have to mix in increasing amounts of the less-musical pickup. The mini mike also causes more feedback problems, and is quite sensitive to wind noise in outdoor gigs.

Rather than ship you an empty box and expect you to make your own presets, Fishman installs 16 different sound images that were made with a variety of guitars, pickups and mikes. They are a nice collection of images spanning a wide range of instruments, pickups and mikes, and they also have made available a larger number of downloadable presets on their web site that you can experiment with and load into the Aura with the free utility they offer on their web site. (You also need a computer, an internet connection, a $30 USB-to-MIDI connector box and a MIDI cable.) It is a crapshoot whether or not one of these will be good for your guitar, and actually unlikely that any of them will be perfect. Every time I have tried, there has been at least one preset that sounded quite nice on a random guitar, and it is quite possible that you could be completely happy with one of them; I know several people who are very happily performing with installed pre-set sound images. I have two guitars, however, of the same brand and model, with the same pickups in them, and the sound image I made for each of them sounds unacceptable when played through the one made for the other. I have a friend with the same make and model guitar and pickup, and their guitar did not sound great with either sound image I had made for both my "matching" guitars. It is a very individual thing. If you take the time to make a special one for your guitar & pickup combination, the result can be downright astonishing, and I urge anyone who gets an Aura box to do this, even though it is somewhat tricky to do.

The problems of performing live with the Aura are much larger than those of recording, since an acoustic guitar will feed back when it is near a live speaker, and if the resonances are excessive they can cause things to sound strange. You need to experiment a lot with the EQ, phase, and above all the relative mix of the pickup signal and the Aura-modified one, and the combinations you choose will be quite different for performing vs. recording.

I have made test recordings where I recorded simultaneously with both the pickup and Aura system, and with a nice mike in front of the guitar, to compare the two sounds. Even when using a guitar of mine where I never liked the pickup at all, I was able to make a recording, where it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between the track recorded with the mike and the one recorded with the Aura. It is literally that powerful a device. It also has the power to make a mess of your sound if you have the presets and the knobs in the wrong place, and the whole thing requires a great deal of care and patience.
And finally, I assure you that I am not deluding myself or jumping to sudden conclusions; I have done months of experimenting. I have set up 2 entire systems on stage at concerts, so I could switch back to my old setup instantly if I didn't like something, and I have spent hundreds of hours refining my use of the Aura, and compared it in all sorts of gig situations, and recorded shows to compare sounds. When I played at the Club Lingerie in Hollywood, which has the biggest PA I have ever played through indoors, the sound man came running out of the booth to tell me that that was the best acoustic guitar sound he had ever heard in 20 years. (And that was after him not liking me very much because I was not using his DI boxes or his mikes, etc.) I am not being paid to use the Aura, or to say good things about it. The acoustic music world very much needs to get louder and to sound better, and this technology is the first real breakthrough I have seen in over 20 years, and I feel that the world of acoustic music will be greatly improved by the use of this and subsequent technologies."

HARVEY REID
Nov 2008
_________________
Mark

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

A light bulb just turned on for me. Now I see why the Jerry Douglas pedal doesn't have DI. They intend for the pedal to be used with an amp like the Fishman Loudbox Performer or Artist, and the amp has the DI. Now if I could only find the money.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I am talking about convenience of installation and expense... AKA Bang for the buck
Any one who has A/B tested Lace reso slimline pick-up into a Para DI against an Aura system raise your hand and speak up...
I am looking for and have found a good clear clean Dobro sound in an average band situation and this can be difficult if the band is a little on the loud side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIa7AqZYGUM
This is a stick on pick up, the National is no longer available.
I have a good sound with this lace Slimline and a Para DI.
This is just information to be considered and not a contest... right?

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

I apologize and probably worded my response badly.

What I tried to say was that everyone has to look at their own application and decide for themselves what is best. If it works for you it certainly works for me.

Make sense?

h

Mark Eaton · Posted 6 Jul 2012 12:11 pm

Ken, it seemed like the hair on the back of your neck might have bristled a bit after you read my question, but it was just a simple question, that's all. It's not about a "contest" or anything else. I think it's pretty much a done deal that as of this time, July, 2012, the best dobro amplification system on the market is the newer Fishman Aura.

I saw Mike Witcher playing his koa Clinesmith with Peter Rowan last Sunday at Rancho Nicasio in Marin County and it sounded great through the Fishman Aura. He actually had Kent Schoonover rush him a new one (he uses the Schoonover modular spider in his guitar) because one of the strings on his existing pickup was lower in volume due to some sort of defect. There does seem to be more episodes of this type than there should be, where there is a defect of some sort and the pickup needs to be replaced. Apparently refining these things has been an ongoing process? Perhaps Howard can speak to this.

This is zero reflection on you personally because of couse I haven't heard you play your Lace-equipped reso, but I have come across in recent years folks who claim they get authentic dobro sound with whatever pickup setup they are using and once they start playing, it doesn't sound very authentic. Most of the time it will be some magnetic unit and it makes their guitar sound more like a lap steel. Or it might be the tinny, pitiful sounding Fishman "donut" under the cone pickup I used for a few years before I decided it just sucked too badly. I've come across folks who say they get great, accurate sound out of the Fishman donut - then I know that they haven't heard the newer Fishman Aura.

If you play in a band and you're on your pedal steel or some other instrument all night, and there are only two songs where you play the dobro, then you might not want to take the plunge for the whole Fishman program, that makes perfect sense to me.
_________________
Mark

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Yes and thank you.
My response was no doubt over the top and I will apologize also. Embarassed

I was addressing the reference to... are they hard to install and do you absolutely need the Aura.
My experience playing live other than acoustic levels I did not like standing up to a mike and other systems seemed to sound like a lap steel as the volume increased.
My admission of owning a Regal should qualify that I am not putting $1000s into this.
I have tried to mic a Dobro over the years with limited success and stumbled onto this at the recommendation of a pro player and was pleasantly surprised for a stick on pick up.
Oddly enough I had a defective Lace Slimline and had to exchange it also.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

Olli,

Sent you an email...

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

Thanks, everybody!
One more question:
The Aura 16 is significantly cheaper ( 80 euros in Europe) than the JD pedal and there`s a big library of different user downloadable models, including resophonic specific.
I play other acoustic instruments too. So wouldn`t the Sixteen be a more more versatile tool for me ?
_________________
Olli Haavisto
Finland

Mark Eaton · Posted 11 Jul 2012 6:25 am

A new Aura 16 in the U.S. sells for $250. The Euro right now is about $1.23, so 80 Euros = $98.40

Something does not sound right with this Olli. If it is true, where can I find these 80 Euros Aura 16s?

Or are you saying that it's 80 Euros less/$98.40 lower than the U.S.? That still sounds too good to be true for a brand new pedal.
_________________
Mark

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

The JD is 279 euros and the Sixteen is 198 eur. 81 euro difference...
The Spectrum is also interesting, with a preamp, eq, compressor, tuner and DI. Any experience with resos/Nashville pick up ?
_________________
Olli Haavisto
Finland

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