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Topic: A-F Intonation Issue |
Cameron Mitchell
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 12:06 pm |
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I'm having some intonation issues when I hit a major chord in the A & F position.
When I depress the A pedal and F lever (open position) to get a C# major, on strings 6, 5, 4, you have: G#, C#, F (E#). I've noticed (both with my ear and the tuner) that my 6th string G# drops in pitch quite a bit. It's perplexing because I'm not even adjusting that string from the no pedals position (E major) to this position. It's very noticeable when I hit the octaves 6th and 3rd strings.
I'm well aware of cabinet drop, but is there anything mechanical I can adjust or is this just the way it is?
Thanks,
Cameron
_________________
http://www.CameronMitchell.net |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 12:24 pm
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Yes, there is. You can add a pull rod on the A pedal to activate the 6th string, raising it back to your original note. This will make your A pedal minor and your A+F change easier to live with, particularly if your guitar de-tunes appreciably. Been doing it since I first discovered the possibility back in the early 90's.
It's easy to do as long as you have an extra changer hole, needs only a short pull, is tunable and doesn't interfere with any thing else.
Last edited by Jerry Overstreet on 28 Jun 2012 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 12:24 pm
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A plain sixth string is affected far more by cabinet drop than the third string. My steel (83 Emmons PP)does the exact same thing. I can see it on the tuner, and I can hear it when tuning. However, I don't really hear it as a big issue when playing.
PSG is inherently an imperfect instrument. Don't let it drive you crazy.
Solutions:
1) compensate with the bar when you actually hear intonation problems as you play,
2) use a wound sixth string, as it is affected far less by cabinet drop,
3) shop for a steel with less cabinet drop, so the problem is less noticeable, &/or
4) buy an Emmons LeGrande III with the counter-force mechanism, so cabinet drop is virtually eliminated.
Bottom line: Do whatever it takes to play in tune.
Oops!! I forgot to add the point that Jerry raised. Add a compensator, which is an option I've considered but not tried yet. |
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Cameron Mitchell
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 12:52 pm
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Thanks guys. I think I'll try switching out the string before doing anything too mechanical. I have tried the slight bar slant, but haven't got it to consistently sound good yet.
Thanks for the help!
_________________
http://www.CameronMitchell.net |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 1:43 pm
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I use another option: I flatten my thirds less than the full 11 cents.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Cameron Mitchell
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 1:57 pm
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Lane, do you still find that it makes your no pedals major chord still sound in tune? 11 cents sounds like a lot...
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http://www.CameronMitchell.net |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 2:01 pm
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What Paul said...on 1) and 2). I actually avoid using an open A&F because so many steels I've sat down to play have that problem.
Sometimes, it's easier to avoid a problem than it is to try and solve it. If a particular chord is giving me an intonation problem, I just avoid it and find the same chord (or something "close" in another position. At my age, it's more practical to to try and perfect my playing that it is to try and perfect all my guitars.  |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 2:39 pm Compensate it...
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| What Jerry said. As many as it takes... |
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Pete Nicholls
From:
Macon, Georgia, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 2:53 pm
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What is "cabinet drop"? Another new term for me!
_________________
Justice The Judge SD-10, 2007
Justice Pro Lite SD-10, 2011
Quilter Steelaire
Quilter Labs Tone Block 202 Head
Roland Cube 80-XL
American Stratocaster - Yamaha Bass Guitar
1 Fender Telecaster Nashville Edition
Ham Call: N4BHB |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 3:10 pm
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Cameron, 11 cents is the typical offset for flattening major thirds.
I choose to flatten my G#s about 4 cents, so that the C#/G# fifth doesn't sound so icky.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 3:25 pm
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Jerry, if you're out of holes, couldn't you put a rod from the A pedal to the B pedal, just tugging it a smidge, if you were so inclined?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 4:21 pm
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
| You can add a pull rod on the A pedal to activate the 6th string, raising it back to your original note. |
I would not recommend this method because it does nothing to fix the pitch drop on the 6th string when it is raised to A or A#. And that (raised to A) is the situation when the 6th string drop seems most unpleasant, because it spoils the perfect 4th and 5th intervals with the E strings.
But you could try a similar fix along these lines: Use a pull rod to keep your 6th string normally lowered by 8 cents or whatever you need, and release that rod's tension when you mash the A pedal.
I prefer the simpler fix which is to just use a wound 6th string. It sounds better anyway to me. The only drawback of using a wound 6th is that it worsens cabinet drop in the other strings. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 4:33 pm
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All due respect Earnest, I don't understand your point re: the raised A.
The comp rod method I suggest has nothing to do with anything else. If you attach it to the A pedal, you can raise the open G# note back to your original tuned note [or anything else you desire].
When you activate the B pedal, that overrides that small truing done with the A pedal/open G#. Neither does it affect any split tuning you are doing via the added rod.
Using a wound 6th string is a problem for lowering a whole tone. Wouldn't be my choice either way.
It works or I wouldn't be doing it. Whether anyone else agrees or decides to add it is up to them. Don't matter to me.
For the cost of a pull train, provided it's a modern all pull system, you can solve the OP's problem in about the time it takes to change a string.
Rather than argue the mechanics about it here, anyone that has a genuine interest in the method can PM me and I'll be glad to help you with it.
Just trying to help Cameron with his issue. That's all. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 4:47 pm
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FWIW: I add a compensator rod to my F lever to pull the 6th string up to pitch when using the A&F pedal combination. Seems to work ok.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 4:57 pm
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| Check your pedal stop on string five. If it goes past what is needed to raise 5 then it will pull the changer next to it and flatten 6. I had this problem with my PP until I figured it out. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 5:02 pm
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Bent, why not on the A pedal, so the C#min rings true as well?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 5:22 pm
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| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
All due respect Earnest, I don't understand your point re: the raised A.
The comp rod method I suggest has nothing to do with anything else. If you attach it to the A pedal, you can raise the open G# note back to your original tuned note [or anything else you desire].
When you activate the B pedal, that overrides that small truing done with the A pedal/open G#. |
Yes; that is my point. When you activate the B pedal, that overrides your comp rod method, and it does nothing. It sounds as tho you do understand why it doesn't work when the B pedal is activated. That is when you need it most, IMO.
The cumbersome method that I suggested (releasing a small lower) would work when the 6th string is at G#, A, or A#. It would not work when the 6th string is at G or F#, due to override similar to what you mentioned. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 5:31 pm
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| It's not meant to do anything when you activate the B pedal. It's attached to the 6th string via the A pedal linkage. All it's supposed to do is true the open G# note when you use the A pedal. This compensates the 6th string detuning issue described in Cameron's original post. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 7:43 pm
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In the mean time...
Just use the A-F position ONLY for 7th. minor and augmented chords.
Don't play a Major A-F chord until you feel comfortable with it.
It will come to you in time..
Start by making sure your A-F are in tune by ear.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 28 Jun 2012 7:52 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Bent, why not on the A pedal, so the C#min rings true as well? |
Lane, hooking up to the F lever did the trick on this guitar according to my ears. But it's easy to change so I may experiment
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Tim Heidner
From:
Groves, TX
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Posted 29 Jun 2012 10:03 am
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don't play that string in that particular chord!  |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 30 Jun 2012 12:10 am
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Tune straight up and then tune the pedals and levers to the chords.
I have -2 cents cab drop on the raises and +2 cent of the lowers
Tune all strings to 440. Then with A&B down (an A chord) tune the A&B pedals to 440 -2cents. With the B&C pedals down (an F#m chord or A6) tune the C pedals to 440 -2 cents. With the A&F pedal & lever (a C#maj chord) tune the F lever 440 -2 cents. With the E lever (the one that lowers the Es) and makes a G#m or B6 chord, tune the lever to 440 +2 cents and etc....
All the chords will sound fine. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 30 Jun 2012 9:44 am
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| I agree with Lane Gray. I have never played a guitar that I can't tune the open 6th string 3-4 cents sharper to split the difference in the cabinet drop on the open 6th. Thirds mathmaticly tune out at -13.7 cents. If I did I would check that the endplates were tight first. That usuallly takes care of it. Never had to do a comp rod but it makes sense. This is more a tuning issue than anything. Nice to know Lane that someone else out there hears the way I do. |
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