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Topic: Technical questions from a noob.... |
Patrick Thornhill
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2012 3:59 pm |
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Well, not even a noob yet. Still a wannabe. Regardless, I've been a lurker here since about the beginning (1997 or 1998) and have long wanted to learn the pedal steel. I have yet to get myself one (so expensive!), but I have a dobro (*ahem*...a "resonator guitar") so I sort of qualify as a steel guitarist. 
The pedal steel is a beautiful instrument, and quite a mechanical contraption as well and has a terminology all its own, and I have a few questions about this terminology that I know y'all can answer. Thanks to the handy animated .GIF that was on the Carter site, I know the difference between "push-pull" and "all pull" However, the following still elude me:
-"triple raise/triple lower"(or any variation thereon)
-"pedal split"
-the Franklin pedal
Thanks for your patience with me, and for all of the insight that I've gleaned from all of you over the years. I'll be hitting the Austin Steel Guitar Co-Op event at Bar 290 tomorrow and home to meet a few of there!
-PT |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Jun 2012 5:34 pm
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Triple raise, triple lower means that the guitar has an all-pull changer with three raise holes and three lowering holes. I'll scare up some pics. Tony W's blue Sho-Bud looks like it's double raise, double lower.
Yup. See there are two holes in each upper flange for each string, and 2 holes in the lowering finger as well.
"pedal split" means that on an all-pull guitar, you can raise a note by a certain amount AND lower it, and tune the resulting lowered raise.
This requires either stop screws at the changer or a third pull rod¹ to tune both the raised lower and the simple lower.
The "Franklin Pedal," sometimes called the "Franklin Drop," lowers both B strings to A and the low G# to F#
¹This is because, as you add tension to a string, it responds slower to changer movement than if it's relaxed. Even assuming you wanted to lower the 6th string 200 cents both from the open G# and the B pedal A, the pull to G from A will have to travel farther than the pull from F#
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Jun 2012 5:43 pm Re: Technical questions from a noob....
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| Patrick Thornhill wrote: |
-"triple raise/triple lower"(or any variation thereon) |
How many raise/lower pull-rods the changer can take for each string. The picture shows a triple raise/double lower...
| Patrick Thornhill wrote: |
| -"pedal split" |
Combining a raise on one pedal/lever with a lower on another, to get the combined note. For instance: lower a G# a full note (to F#), and then raise it a half note, should result in a perfect G. Usually that split doesn't quite hit the perfect G, so we use some form of split-tuning to get it just right.
| Patrick Thornhill wrote: |
| -the Franklin pedal |
Lower 6t string G# to F# and both B strings to A, on a dedicated pedal, is known by most as the "Franklin Pedal".
Many of us have the G# to F# lower on a lever - from way back in time, and only add the B to A strings lower to a dedicated pedal (if we want/care to), some call that a "half Franklin" for whatever reason |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Jun 2012 5:48 pm
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Georg, that second raise on the 6th string looks in sad shape.
I'm trying to find a clear shot of a triple triple. I may also see if I can see a pic of those crazy 5 raise, four lower Excels.
Watch this post for edits.
Here, on the sale forum, David Higginbotham's U-12 Zum has a triple raise, triple lower and he gave us a very good shot of it.
I'm still looking for the excel.
EDIT: And I FOUND some.
Excel makes/made a guitar I don't understand. The writeup says 5 raise and 5 lower, but I count 12 holes!! (This is in a thread on the old forum, so I couldn't just grab the picture.)
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/012558.html
this 1 is either 5 raise and 4 lower or maybe 5 and 5. It looks like 3, but I think that's parallax.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 17 Jun 2012 3:08 am
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A little more info on the triple raise/lower: the other guys explained the mechanics pretty thoroughly, but not the "why". First and foremost, a triple raise/lower means that you can have up to three different levers or pedals that will raise a particular string (and, of course, the same number to lower it). Obviously, the pedals will either change that string by different amounts, or also change other strings differently to provide a specific chord (an example of the second instance: both the A and C pedals on a standard E9 raise the 5th string a full step. But, the C pedal also raises the 4th string a 1/2 step, where as the A pedal does not.
Good luck!
Doug (also a newbie, who has just figured this all out himself)
If you look at the photo Georg has, that guitar would be fine with that setup with just double raise/lower. However, if he wanted to later add pedals, he could not easily raise strings 3-6 with a double-raise.
There is one more advantage: you get different amounts of leverage and length of throw depending on how far from the pivot point each hole is. More options gives you a bit more control for adjusting the distance the pedal has to be pressed to achieve the desired pull, and how stiff the pedal is.
As Lane will testify, a U-12 tends to use a lot of pulls on the same strings, since the same strings are working in E-9 and C-6. Here is my Zum U-12, set up by Tony Glassman, with a rather unique coped. You will see that a number of strings have all three of the triple raises (and even one on the lowers) filled up. A double raise/lower would not allow this particular coped.
So, applying this knowledge a bit further, you can go to the coped pages here on the forum, and see who actually uses three different raises or lowers on their instruments. You will see that you do not need a triple raise/lower for a "standard" setup, either and S-10 or a D-10, although some of the pros end up using three different pedals/levers on a particular string. It is required for most U-12 setups, although Lane has a pretty much tricked out one that he pulled off without the triple raise/lower.
If this is influencing a buy decision, I would suggest that you will be just fine with double raise/lower if you found a guitar you liked otherwise that is an S-10 or D-10. If you are buying new, almost all pro guitars these days have triple raise/lower, so probably is not an issue. Student models might be different. Again, if you are buying a U-12, it will probably have triple raise/lower unless it is pretty old. You could be a bit more limited with this...although there are ways to work around it.
I think the other two questions were pretty thoroughly answered. Post again if you have any questions.
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Jun 2012 4:18 am
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| Douglas Schuch wrote: |
A little more info on the triple raise/lower: the other guys explained the mechanics pretty thoroughly, but not the "why". First and foremost, a triple raise/lower means that you can have up to three different levers or pedals that will raise a particular string (and, of course, the same number to lower it). Obviously, the pedals will either change that string by different amounts, or also change other strings differently to provide a specific chord (an example of the second instance: both the A and C pedals on a standard E9 raise the 5th string a full step. But, the C pedal also raises the 4th string a 1/2 step, where as the A pedal does not.
Good luck!
Doug (also a newbie, who has just figured this all out himself)
If you look at the photo Georg has, that guitar would be fine with that setup with just double raise/lower. However, if he wanted to later add pedals, he could not easily raise strings 3-6 with a double-raise.
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Not quite fine. You'll note that in some cases, he used the third hole and the first hole on the same string: see my next interjection
| Quote: |
There is one more advantage: you get different amounts of leverage and length of throw depending on how far from the pivot point each hole is. More options gives you a bit more control for adjusting the distance the pedal has to be pressed to achieve the desired pull, and how stiff the pedal is.
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Also to adjust timing. The B pedal pulls two widely dissimilar strings, and will therefore use faster pulls on on the 6th string and slower pulls on the 3rd. Players of modern guitars EXPECT that all pulls on a pedal or knee will start and end together, unless you use the later start of a pull as a "feel stop." Most E9th necks do this, dropping the 2nd string to C#, and the 9th string starts moving when the 2nd string hits D.
The pulls at the top hole in each group will be faster/stiffer and the ones at the bottom of each group will be slower and easier.
| Quote: |
As Lane will testify, a U-12 tends to use a lot of pulls on the same strings, since the same strings are working in E-9 and C-6. Here is my Zum U-12, set up by Tony Glassman, with a rather unique coped. You will see that a number of strings have all three of the triple raises (and even one on the lowers) filled up. A double raise/lower would not allow this particular coped.
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Would not easily allow it. There's ways of transcending limits.
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So, applying this knowledge a bit further, you can go to the coped pages here on the forum, and see who actually uses three different raises or lowers on their instruments. You will see that you do not need a triple raise/lower for a "standard" setup, either and S-10 or a D-10, although some of the pros end up using three different pedals/levers on a particular string. It is required for most U-12 setups, although Lane has a pretty much tricked out one that he pulled off without the triple raise/lower.
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Well, for the two strings that raise four times, I'm still waiting for Michael Yahl to make Sho-Bud barrels.
There are two ways of getting more pulls out of a string. There's a gizmo that lets a pull ride on an adjacent hole (I have two at work now).
The old Sho-Bud system LOOKS like single raise, single lower, but you can have as many pulls on a string as you have shafts. But you can't adjust timing.
EDIT: Douglas or Tony, what are the red, white and blue color codings for?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 17 Jun 2012 9:12 am
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Douglas said:
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| Obviously, the pedals will either change that string by different amounts, or also change other strings differently to provide a specific chord (an example of the second instance: both the A and C pedals on a standard E9 raise the 5th string a full step. But, the C pedal also raises the 4th string a 1/2 step, where as the A pedal does not. |
Actually, the C pedal raises the 4th string a whole tone, not a half.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 17 Jun 2012 2:54 pm
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Well, I did state I was a newbie myself, so apologies for the dumb errors.
Lane, the blue tuning nuts are the lowers, all on the 8th pedal which has the lock on it, that takes it from an ext E9 to a B6 tuning. (string 2 has a white one as the blue nut was stripped so I replaced it with what I had. See coped in this thread):
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=227226&highlight=
All of the red nuts are on the typical B6 pulls, but not all of those pulls are red. So, if it has any significance beyond that, I don't know it.
Now, is there anything else I can add confusion too? Glad to help!
Doug
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2012 5:13 am
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Come out to the Austin Steel Guitar Co-op... look around and ask a few questions.. No Charge
With PSG it is good to have some one on one interaction.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Patrick Thornhill
From:
Austin Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2012 6:27 am
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Hey Ken-
I caught Marty Muse's set yesterday. Really liked his Duke Ellington arrangements.
Didn't really want to hastle anyone, since I'm still pretty green
-PT |
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