| Author |
Topic: Tuning Experiment and ? |
Frank James Pracher
From:
Michigan, USA
|
Posted 23 May 2012 7:56 am |
|
After reading another post about tuning certain strings flat or sharp, I did an experiment. I used one of my lap steels tuned to C6th and tuned up the root note with a tuner. I then tuned the other notes by ear until it sounded "right" to me.
When I checked it with a tuner they were all right on. I did it a few times and got the same result. I am using one of those little Snark tuners. Before that I always just tuned my guitars to my keyboard.
So am I just used to hearing, the notes tuned "right on"? Is there a video or an audio clip were some one plays the "adjusted" notes, that I could tune to?
_________________
"Don't be mad honey, but I bought another one" |
|
|
 |
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 23 May 2012 1:41 pm
|
|
Try this to get one of your steels into Just Intonation.
Get your hi E from the tuner ... and then use the "natural harmonic" method to tune all the other strings.
I made these charts years back to help folks ... here's the C6 one ...
Simultaneously pick and touch the strings at the indicated frets ... and "match" them.
Once you have your high E ... "ring" it at the 12th fret and "match" it to the A strings fifth (seventh fret) ... slowly bring up the A string until the beats slow down ... they will start very fast and slow as they approach unison ... stop when you no longer hear any more "wobble" ... don't go too far or they will start up again.
Then "match" the high E to the low E ...
Next go for the C ... using the hi E.
That's the trickiest harmonic to ring ... the "third" of the C string ... it's a hair toward the nut off the 4th fret. An alternative harmonic for that third is at the 9th fret of the C string.
Once you get the C ... tune the lo C and the G off it ...
This is good practice for ear training too ... since slants are brought into tune via your ear ...
It takes practice ... but like they say: "once you go JI, you won't go back" ...  |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 23 May 2012 2:03 pm
|
|
PS: If you want your root C to be your reference note ... tune it with the tuner ...
The chart still works ...
It doesn't matter what string is your ET reference note ... Just Intonation is an "interval thing"
Jerry Byrd got his hi E from the Guitar player ...
Some get the root of the tuning from the tuner ...
Some adjust the root ... depending on the tuning being used ... so the 3rd, 6th, and/or dominant 7ths are not too flat and/or sharp from ET ...
 |
|
|
|
Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
|
Posted 23 May 2012 10:56 pm
|
|
Frank:
You might have noticed some regular guitarists doing slight retuning before certain songs- it is often to match the key of the next song and the main chord forms that they are using (like an open E or an open A or an open D.)
I start off with a digital tuner but then fine-tune the notes that aren't quite right. The clip-on tuners can be very handy but I've gotten better results from a cheap $20 Seiko tuner with an internal mike that you can lay flat on the body of your steel. (It also displays cents if you want to experiment with some of the Just Intonation charts that come up in a site search.)
I believe that if you do use Just Intonation for your open strings that it could throw some of your slants out of whack (since the 3rd will be on a different string.)
Steve
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
Posted 24 May 2012 12:19 am
|
|
Here are some suggested lap steel offsets from the Peterson tuner web site/forum. Notice that each tuning is listed twice. The second listing of each tuning has the Equally tempered root (+00.0 Cent or 440 Hz) and the + or - offsets of the other strings.
Notice the flatted 3rds and 6ths in all of the tunings.
I use the basic settings shown below for C6, but sometimes I tweak them a little. With the Peterson tuners the offsets are preset in the tuner for C6 (pedal steel) and many other instruments, so you don't need to worry about the numbers.
C6 - Six string lap steel
Note ____ Cent Offset
C________+09.8
E________-03.9
G________+07.9
A________-05.9
C________+09.8
E________-03.9
C6 - Six string lap steel- with Equally tempered root
Note ____ Cent Offset
C________+00.0
E________-13.7
G________-01.9
A________-15.7
C________+00.0
E________-13.7
A6 - Six string lap steel
Note ____ Cent Offset
A_________+09.8
C#________-03.9
F#________-05.9
A_________+09.8
C#________-03.9
E_________+07.9
A6 - Six string lap steel - with Equally tempered root
Note ____ Cent Offset
A_________+00.0
C#________-13.7
F#________-15.6
A_________+00.0
C#________-13.7
E_________-01.9
C13 - Six string lap steel
Note ____ Cent Offset
Bb_______+00.0
E________-03.9
G________+07.9
A________-05.9
C________+09.8
E________-03.9
C13 - Six string lap steel - with Equally tempered root
Note ____ Cent Offset
Bb_______-9.8
E________-13.7
G________-01.9
A________-03.9
C________+00.0
E________-13.7
E6 - Six string lap steel
Note ____ Cent Offset
E________+17.8
B________+07.9
E________+17.8
G#_______-03.9
C#_______-05.9
E________+17.8
E6 - Six string lap steel with Equally tempered root
Note ____ Cent Offset
E________+00.0
B________-09.9
E________+00.0
G#_______-13.9
C#_______-23.7
E________+00.0
C13 - Eight string lap steel
Note ____ Cent Offset
C________+09.8
Bb_______+00.0
C________+09.8
E________-03.9
G________+07.9
A________-05.9
C________+09.8
E________-03.9
C13 - Eight string lap steel - with Equally tempered root
Note ____ Cent Offset
C________+00.0
Bb_______-09.8
C________+00.0
E________-13.7
G________-01.9
A________-15.7
C________+00.0
E________-13.7
B11 - Eight string lap steel
Note ____ Cent Offset
B________+09.8
F#_______+07.9
B________+09.8
D#_______-03.9
F#_______+07.9
A________+00.0
C#_______-05.9
E________+05.9
B11 - Eight string lap steel - with Equally tempered root
Note ____ Cent Offset
B________+00.0
F#_______-01.9
B________+00.0
D#_______-13.7
F#_______-01.9
A________-09.8
C#_______-15.7
E________-03.9
E13 - Eight string lap steel
Note ____ Cent Offset
E________+09.8
G#_______-03.9
B________+07.9
D________-00.0
F#_______-05.9
G#_______-03.9
C#_______-05.9
E________+09.8
E13 - Eight string lap steel - with Equally tempered root
Note ____ Cent Offset
E________+00.0
G#_______-13.7
B________-15.7
D________-05.9
F#_______-15.7
G#_______-13.7
C#_______-15.7
E________+00.0
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 24 May 2012 4:23 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| I believe that if you do use Just Intonation for your open strings that it could throw some of your slants out of whack (since the 3rd will be on a different string. |
Didn't seem to bother Jerry Byrd and the great Hawaiian and Western Swing players who all used JI ... 
Slants are brought into tune via your ear ... Not "sight geometry" ...
It doesn't matter if the open string is tuned as a 3rd ... And then used as a 2nd in another chord via slanting ... Your ear will adjust the angle of the slant to bring it correctly in tune.
That's the beauty of steel guitar ... It allows for JI in all keys ... Up and down the fretboard in straight bar positions ... With a plethora of JI intervals available via slanting.
I wrote a nice little essay on this topic ...
http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m7_1.htm .... Click on : Slantin' in Just Intonation ...Some good bathroom reading ...
I'm just trying to help ... Sharing stuff I learned along the way ...
Feel free to tune your steel anyway you like ...
But the greats ... The legends of steel guitar that we all idolize ... They tuned " beatless" whenever possible *...
*Open Tunings containing the root, second, fifth and sixth ... cannot be tuned completely beatless.
|
|
|
|
Frank James Pracher
From:
Michigan, USA
|
Posted 24 May 2012 6:00 am
|
|
Thanks for all the tips guys. I'll play around with it and see what I like.
_________________
"Don't be mad honey, but I bought another one" |
|
|
|
Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
|
Posted 24 May 2012 5:11 pm
|
|
| Rick Aiello wrote: |
| Didn't seem to bother Jerry Byrd and the great Hawaiian and Western Swing players who all used JI ... |
Did they actually refer to it as Just Intonation back then- or do you mean that they tuned by ear which would have the same results?
If you do the math and the geometry a straight line 3-note slant with JI could be off a little bit. I suspect that they might have gotten the right pitches by pushing or pulling the strings a little bit behind the bar. Just like a regular guitarist will use finger pressure to get the right pitches on the chords he plays. Or even easier- just playing 2-note slants when the 3rd note would come out sour. (3-note slants always come out sour for me so I am still working on 2-note slants.)
I don't know about Jerry but I think that most of the Western Swing players were just playing by ear without a thorough knowledge of chords and harmony and music theory. To figure out their parts they moved their bar around until it sounded right, at least until they got good enough so they would know exactly where to place their bar for a particular chord and inversion. Well, that is my theory with absolutely no evidence to back it up... I guess I ought to get into politics! 
Steve Ahola
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
Posted 24 May 2012 5:36 pm
|
|
Steve, I tend to agree... I think they tuned mostly by ear and the result was probably JI. Just a guess on my part.
I started playing guitar in 1964 and steel guitar in 1970. Back then we used tuning forks. When I bought my first steel guitar in 1970 (E9 tuning), the store owner gave me an E tuning fork and said "here kid, you're gonna need this" (and I still have it!). We tuned the root note as a reference point and tuned the other strings by ear. So there's no way to know for sure if a steel player was tuning JI or ET at that time. Some recording studios had the large strobe tuners. But usually the band would either tune to a piano or with a tuning fork. In either case the player had to use his EARS to tune. A agree that steel guitarists constantly intonate with the bar as they play... two note harmonies, slants, etc.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
|
Posted 25 May 2012 4:08 am
|
|
| Quote: |
Did they actually refer to it as Just Intonation back then- or do you mean that they tuned by ear which would have the same results?
|
Jerry Byrd definitely knew and called it Just Intonation.
I still have the letter he sent me after I mailed him my first lesson cassette ... back in the early 80's.
I was so proud, had gotten a Korg tuner ... practiced Sweet Lei Lehua a million times ... double checked my tuning each time ... finally got a good one and sent it off.
I received his letter back in less than a week ... he wrote:
| Quote: |
| "I couldn't get past the first measure. Learn to tune your steel using Just Intonation and when you have, send me another cassette." |
One measure and he hit "stop" ...I was devastated and bewildered.
I had no idea what that was let alone how to do it. I was a high school chemistry teacher and asked our band director ... he explained the history of tuning (Pythagoras, mean tone, JI, etc)... but that was little to no help.
I finally found the info I needed in comprehensive music theory book from our library ... and one of my Physics books ... and went to work.
I sent him another tape and he replied:
| Quote: |
| "Well at least you learned how to tune your guitar ... now ..." |
And proceeded to tell me everything else that I was doing wrong.
I don't know about the Western Swing guys ... but you can bet your a$$ Andy Iona (band leader) and the other Hawaiians knew what ... "harmonic tuning" was.
Just Intonation and harmonic tuning has been around for centuries ... nothing fancy, technical and new about it.
It just happens that a steel guitar can utilize it to great affect ... which can't be said for too many instruments.
| Quote: |
| If you do the math and the geometry a straight line 3-note slant with JI could be off a little bit. |
Oh I did, many years ago ... ... I refer you to the bathing reading I mentioned above
http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/userfiles/slantinginji.rtf
The fretboard is an ET thing ... once you let your ears 'move' the bar ... instead of your eyes ... your slants will start to ring true ... |
|
|
|
Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
|
Posted 25 May 2012 4:44 am
|
|
Being in troubles, I did a lot of investigation on tuning methods. I have not found the best, only the least bad - the ET tuning.
However, if you want to tune deliberately "wrong", I mean off the ET scale, I recommend to do it right.
All needle type tuners I have encountered, regardless if they have a real needle or LED´s, were useless. In addition to intonation problems (on a standard guitar)or technical shortcomings (cabinet drop and pedal return friction on pedal steels) those errors made things worse.
I can only recommend strobe type tuners, for technical reasons they are much more accurate if you want to go into the cents region. Peterson is a viable option, but IMHO expensive.I have a turbo tuner which works like a breeze and lets you adopt funny tuning schemes. (There is a version that does it better than the stompbox edition.).
However, I have seen a (free?) i-phone strobe tuner app that seems to work well and I recently bought a PC based application called tbstrobe tuner for next to nothing that lets you save all your settings.
Basically I advocate ear tuning but the ear is not always correct, and dependent on the situation (stress on live gigs and noise) it fails entirely.
And Rick, great you did not call it a day after that devastating answer from Jerry. I probably would have resigned.
have fun,
-helmut 
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
|
|
|
Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
|
Posted 25 May 2012 11:19 am
|
|
| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| I started playing guitar in 1964 and steel guitar in 1970. Back then we used tuning forks. When I bought my first steel guitar in 1970 (E9 tuning), the store owner gave me an E tuning fork and said "here kid, you're gonna need this" (and I still have it!). We tuned the root note as a reference point and tuned the other strings by ear. |
Ah- the good old days before digital tuners. Back when the band would take a vote on whether or not a particular member was in tune... 
So you started off playing pedal steel in 1970? I guess not too many people wanted to learn non-pedal steel back then.
Steve Ahola
P.S. I was sure that some of the WS steel players were very knowledgeable about music, Rick, but I think that in many cases they were playing by the seat of their pants (nothing wrong with that.) I loved your Jerry Byrd story!
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits
Last edited by Steve Ahola on 25 May 2012 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
Posted 25 May 2012 12:22 pm
|
|
Steve, yes, I started on pedal steel in 1970... took out my first loan to buy an Emmons and never looked back! Yes, tuning in a band was a nightmare before electronic tuners. After every third song the audience would have to sit and listen to the guitarists, bass, or steel player trying to tune together... often loud, very annoying.
Rick, that's an incredible JB story! Wow, he was a tough taskmaster. Jerry always spoke his mind, from what I've heard.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
