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Topic: more Cash$ - Tuning some strings # and others b .... why? |
Paul Seager
From:
Augsburg, Germany
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Michael Hillman
From:
Boise, Idaho, USA
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Posted 22 May 2012 11:39 am "tempered" verses "mean" tuning, |
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I believe that in tuning steel and pedal steel, certain notes are a few cents short in order to "temper" the tuning, just as a piano tuner does not tune each note to A 440. I find that in the standard Dobro tuning, the B need to be a couple of cents flat, and you learn to hear the right pitch in the triad in time. I know that pedal steel players tune certain notes slightly flat, in order to play in tune in all keys.
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Two Spector 5 string basses, Martin D-18, Taylor 812CE, 1996’Epiphone Sheraton, 1944 Epiphone Zenith, a killer Luttrell 6 string resophonic, 1932 Model 56 Dobro, Beard Model E, Martin Soprano Uke, 10 string 1953 Alkire Eharp, Peavey Nashville 112, Fender Bassman, Fender 75 watt Rumble, and a Fender 100 watt Rumble. |
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Benjamin Kelley
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 22 May 2012 1:03 pm
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John Ely told me it's because if you didn't use "Just Tuning" that your chords would ring dissonantly with the other instruments and the value of tuning like on Cindy's video is averaged to about 440. He taught Cindy, so I accept this explanation. It's based on tuning to the natural harmonics of the root, in this case "C".
Cheers,
Benjamin
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If I die trying I will steel the world one honky tonk at a time. |
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Wayne D. Clark
From:
Montello Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 22 May 2012 1:23 pm
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| Yes. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 22 May 2012 1:34 pm
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It a matter of temperament, and it has been discussed here on the forum many times. The 6th tone and the 3rd tone (of the open tuning) on the steel guitar need to be tuned slightly flat in order for the chord to sound "in tune". You probably won't notice it if you play alone, but if you record to a track you'll notice it. If I tune all strings to 440, straight up, and strum a 6th chord it sounds sour to my ear... especially when played against the rhythm track.
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My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 22 May 2012 2:53 pm A probing question lingers on...................
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I certainly don't want to create any kind of tuning controversy here on the SGF but..........
Do any of you......know for certain, as accurate as possible...when this thing about tuning some strings sharp and some flat first came about????
The first I ever heard any discussion on this topic was after the 'electronic tuners' came into vogue and Jeff Newman was espousing that theory in his Seminars.
Frankly, I've NEVER heard more out of tune steel guitar players in all of my years of playing, than
during these recent years, after these discussions were first initiated.
Has a legitimate 'musical fact' been abused by a few and fast become 'the new norm' for some? Check out You Tube if you find trouble with my comments. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 22 May 2012 4:54 pm Re: A probing question lingers on...................
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| Ray Montee wrote: |
Do any of you......know for certain, as accurate as possible...when this thing about tuning some strings sharp and some flat first came about |
For certain Ray .....
Jerry Byrd, Sol Hoopii, Dick McIntire and Andy Iona ...
Tuned their thirds -14 cents flat of Equal Temperament ...
Tuned their sixths -16 cents flat of Equal Temperament ...
Tuned their fifths + 2 cents sharp of Equal Temperament ...
Tuned their dominant sevenths +18 cents sharp of equal temperament ...
Tuned their seconds +4 cents sharp of Equal Temperament ...
And you too Ray ... Whenever you took an E from your guitar player ... And then tuned your steel by ear.
They all tuned their steel to be in tune with itself ...
And you know it  |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 22 May 2012 5:11 pm
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Ray, back when players tuned by ear... before electronic tuners came along... I'll bet they naturally tuned their 6ths and 3rds slightly flat without even knowing it or discussing it. It just sounded right to them.
Legend has it that Jeff Newman came up with his tempered settings after a jam session with Lloyd Green. Lloyd was playing one of Jeff's guitars and had tweaked the tuning by ear, the pedals and levers. After Lloyd left Jeff put a tuner on the guitar and wrote down the settings. I don't know if it's true, but it's a good story!
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My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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David Venzke
From:
SE Michigan, USA
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Posted 22 May 2012 5:49 pm
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| Q: How do you temper your lap steel tuning when your accompanist/partner is playing piano (or worse, keyboards)? |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 22 May 2012 5:57 pm In review........................
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THANKS RICK and you too, DOUG! So glad to have Rick back actively here on the SGF. Wonderful!!! Your regular contributions Doug, are likewise appreciated by ME!
So, is it possible I've been tuning 'that way' without being aware of it, simply because I've been tuning it to be in tune with myself?
I've recognized, with the passage of time, that I have occasionally had trouble getting the 3rd string (A) to be in tune/sound right. I work a little harder, on occasion, to get it in pitch then all is okay. Is this what all of you more knowledgeable musicians are talking about or, am I still floundering around in the dark???? 
I use the three string forward slant on strings 1,2, & 3 to confirm all is well, tuning-wise prior to my starting to play, seriously. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 5:20 am
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| David Venzke wrote: |
| Q: How do you temper your lap steel tuning when your accompanist/partner is playing piano (or worse, keyboards)? |
Using Just Intonation ... as described above.
Here is an example ...
Both you and a piano player strike an E13 chord and hold it for a measure.
The piano's root E ... produces harmonics that will clash (cause beats) with the struck dominant 7th, 3rd, and 6th ... but the sustain isn't much ... so the listener "brushes" those transient beats off ...
Your JI tuned steel plays that same chord ... and all the notes harmonically agree with each other (no beats) ... and the listener hears a beautiful sound they really are not all that familiar with ... and are awe inspired. 
The pianos 7th, 3rd and 6th clash (produce beats) with the JI steels 7th, 3rd and 6th ... but do due the percussive nature of a pianos sustain ... very few beats are even perceived by the listener.
If that steel was tuned to Equal Temperament ... well the 7th, 3rd and 6th notes of the piano and the steel wouldn't clash (produce beats) ... but the steels root E harmonics would produce beats with the steels own 7th, 3rd and 6th notes ... and being the sustaining maniac that a steel is ... the listener would hear those beats and be "un-inspired" by the steel player ...
That's about the best I can do to explain what happens when a JI tuned steel pairs up with any ET tuned rhythm instrument ...
Here's a prime example of a JI tuned steel playing with a piano ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb0A2RLE32U
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 23 May 2012 9:18 am More tuning "stuff"
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It appears that these tuning "practices" came about by ear, and then in some cases explained by several math approaches = Time Changes Everything".
ET is a "convenience" to make the distance between frets (hence halftones) on a string a fixed ratio.
The nodal vibrations (harmonic vibes)of the string do not match up with the ET values, so we arrive at tweak to sound right to the player...call this a form of JI as it seems that what is called JI on the Forum is not a constant.
I tune C6 by tuning all to "440" (if using a tuner) and then detune the 3rd and 6th to sound good (to me) as a chord.
The compromise is that if I use another note than C as the root of another chord then I end up with scrambled eggs. The answer is to play as many roots and 5ths (just one or two strings at time)and correct by mirco positioning the bar slant to what the ear wants.
Once you have put the bar to the string(s)everything changes depending upon pressure, string tension, where you pick, and how hard you pick.
When you tune, the pitch is higher if you pick hard than as the vibration dies out. Do you tune for your attack pitch, or for a point in the decay?
If you put recordings of you favorite artist(s)on you can capture the pitch at any point in time and apply a Frequency Spectrum Analyzer to the captured pitch(s) the results can show how the note is approached, dwelled on, and departed from. The magic is in the dynamics of playing which can compensate for cents of tuning variation.
Rick...good answers to a tough question. Where did the Hz values that you gave come from? |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 11:04 am
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From an old post I wrote here years ago ... archived on my website with alot of other ramblings ...
Just Intonation is a Key-Based system that uses fractions to define pitches.
To differentiate between JI systems ... the tuning fractions are "restricted" to prime numbers up to a certain upper limit.
EX:
3 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2 or 3
5 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2,3 or 5
7 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2,3,5 or 7
11 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2,3,5,7 or 11
13 Limit JI ... all fraction factors are multiples of 2,3,5,7,11 or 13
The 5 Limit system seems to be the "best" for 12 tones ... The 3 Limit system doesn't handle thirds well .... The 7, 11 and 13 Limit systems offer lots of variety but some are quite "strange" to traditional ideas of harmony.
As far as tuning guitars "beatless" ... the 5 limit system and the harmonic series "jive" very well ... particularly the first 5 harmonics (root, fifth, and third) ... which are the ones primarily used to get any open tuning beatless ...
The sixths of the 5 limit JI system and the harmonic series don't agree ...
But for a tuning like C6 ... it is more important to get the E and A beatless than it is to get the A to "agree" with the 13th harmonic of C.
Ed those deviations from ET are just whole number "round ups" from the 5 Limit JI ratio set ...
Probably the most thorough chart I have ever seen is here ... http://www.kylegann.com/Octave.html
Can anyone say "microtonal" ... |
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