| Author |
Topic: Knee lever travel |
Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 6:00 am |
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On my MSA classic, both right motion(LKR & RKR) move about 3 times the length of the left-moving pedals. Is this a standard setup for MSA's, or pedal steels in general?
I assume this can be changed, and I'm on the verge of doing it, so I'll probably be asking for assistance when the time comes.
Thanks,
Al
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 6:30 am
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| If your knee levers moving right lower the E's on one and the 2nd string D# to D/C# on the other it would be natural for the travel to be quite a bit longer than raising the E's. Shortening the throw is always at the expense of stiffening it up. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 May 2012 6:59 am
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Al, the only stop on the release is your thigh.
If you mean it takes more travel to accomplish your change, there are a handful of ways to shorten the pull.
Make RKR too stiff, though, and you lift the left end of the guitar. Yes, even that heavy-assed MSA. I ended up lengthening it right back.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 7:07 am
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Is there more concern with how stiff the right motion is vs left motion?
On my guitar:
The RKR is raising string 1 F#-->G#,
The LKR Is lowering string 2 D#->D
Since the left motion of both lever is working 2 strings each, it seems like I would be safe to shorten up the right travel without creating problems?
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 May 2012 7:30 am
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Correct. Personally, I'd add 2nd string to E on your RKR. The change is more effective that way, and it's a fairly easy pull.
Your signature says you have a D-10: Do you also lower 3rd string to B there?
You can stiffen them a bit: You'll know you went too far when the left front corner wants to pull up.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 May 2012 7:35 am
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| Quote: |
| You can stiffen them a bit: You'll know you went too far when the left front corner wants to pull up. |
Or when you dislocate your knee. 
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 7:48 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Correct. Personally, I'd add 2nd string to E on your RKR. The change is more effective that way, and it's a fairly easy pull.
Your signature says you have a D-10: Do you also lower 3rd string to B there?
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OK, I had that backwards:
RKR is lowering string 2 D#-->D
LKR is raising string 1 F#-->G#
And yes, RKR is also lowering C to B on the C6 neck. I hadn't factored that in the equation.
I've also considered changing LKR to raise both F#s to G
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 May 2012 8:52 am
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The MSA Classic is really easy to work on. Stiffening/shortening a lever throw should take 15 minutes, if you have a 5/64 allen wrench
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 10:41 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| The MSA Classic is really easy to work on. Stiffening/shortening a lever throw should take 15 minutes, if you have a 5/64 allen wrench |
I imagine it will take longer the first time, but it looks pretty straightforward. Do I just change the location of the rod in the bell crank?
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 10:48 am
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| On an Emmons p/p, a knee lower is always a longer throw. There really isn't much adjustment for that throw, because of the nature of the changer. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 May 2012 11:03 am
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The following is from the Carter owners info site. The changer in your MSA is probably similar. The pics are oriented like you would see if the guitar was upside down in the case.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 May 2012 11:03 am
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Correct. You loosen the set screw, pull the rod out of the barrel, remove the barrel and put it in the next hole up (by up I mean away from the deck). Reinsert the rod in the barrel, giving it a bit more slack than it had before, and lock it down.
If the barrel is already in the 4th hole, you could move the rod to the other lowering hole.
EDIT: you can also, if you need to, use alternate holes in the reversing linkage.
Richard's chart works, except that you only have 4 holes in the bellcrank and 2 in the fingers
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 23 May 2012 11:21 am
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Thanks guys- I'll let you know how I make out!
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 May 2012 5:50 pm
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Some of my levers move a lot, and some just a little. They should be set up so they feel right, but with considerations. You shouldn't expect a small change (1/2 tone) to be as short as a big change (full tone, or more). Also, you shouldn't expect a 4-string change to feel the same as a 1-string change.
Whenever players query me about this, I simply ask them..."Do the clutch, brake, and accelerator pedals in your vehicle all feel the same? Do they all start and end at the same point? Are the pedals of equal size and shape?"
Now, if you can manage these differences in your car, you should be able to also manage some differences in your guitar. Don't make changes because something looks funny...make changes only when something is affecting your playing in a negative manner. With some pedals, you might actually want a long throw, and with some you might want a short throw, and this is because of the way you use the pedals.  |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 May 2012 6:32 pm
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Excellent advice from Donny.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 24 May 2012 4:39 am
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Yes, Donny, that makes a lot of sense.
I'm still a beginner, and to be honest, I haven't found a lot of use for those particular changes. So when I do use them it's very awkward with the long throw, and can mess up my vp and pedal technique.
I suppose it all boils down to the same old refrain: practice, practice, practice.
But I'll probably try changing one or both just cuz I can.
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 May 2012 4:48 am
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I would also point out that the 2nd string drop, especially if you adjust it for a full-tone drop, will make sense to have a longer throw, as it sounds nice to squeeze it slower than you will your E string levers
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Erich Meisberger
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 24 May 2012 5:29 am
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Hi Al,
I am also a beginner (2+ years)and one of the best adjustments I ever made was to bring my knee levers in closer to my knees. This was especially helpful on RKR, preventing volume pedal issues.
You don't want them too close, but too far out can result in a lot of wasted movement and can also make certain pedal/lever combos unnecessarily difficult.
Hope this helps,
Erich |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 May 2012 5:50 am
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True, but on MSA Classics, adjusting *KR will change how much throw the change has, since you move the lever to another place on the linkage, either closer to or farther from the stop, which is not adjustable.
To adjust the size of the "gate," you adjust the resting position of the *KL
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 24 May 2012 9:04 am
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well THAT was easy! I changed the LKR to reduce the throw. I like it better, it's not a drastic change in throw, and I don't notice much difference at all in the force required to move the lever.
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 24 May 2012 9:06 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
To adjust the size of the "gate," you adjust the resting position of the *KL |
By "gate" do you mean the space between the levers when they're "at rest"?
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 24 May 2012 9:22 am
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| Erich Meisberger wrote: |
Hi Al,
I am also a beginner (2+ years)and one of the best adjustments I ever made was to bring my knee levers in closer to my knees.
Erich |
Thanks for that, Erich. I did find that their was a lot of slop in the way it was adjusted, as in the lever moved a long way before engaging the string.
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 May 2012 11:53 am
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| Al Carey wrote: |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
To adjust the size of the "gate," you adjust the resting position of the *KL |
By "gate" do you mean the space between the levers when they're "at rest"? |
I had almost used the word "cage."
The levers at rest.
Ideally, you would have about 1/2" of leg movement before you start moving a lever.
It's easiest to adjust position of a left-moving knee: you loosen the lever on its shaft (requires a 7/64" Allen wrench), rotate the lever on the shaft and LOCK IT DOWN.
If you want to move a right-moving knee's resting position AND that lever has free travel before it starts pulling a change, you'll need a rod pull, the little barrel-shaped deals that hold the rod in the bellcranks. Pull the rod out of the bellcrank, slip a pull onto the rod and run it down til it sits about 1/16 from the finger. You need a bit of slack in there. You should also see one of those barrels on one rod of each of your *KLs. They are on there to keep the levers from flopping over and sending the rod ends beyond the endplate.
Perhaps Jim Palenscar or Tom Bradshaw sell those pulls separately, Michael Yahl has them in bags of 6. I don't mind because I often lose one to my 2" plus shag carpet.
EDIT: PS: I had a Forumite come over to work on his Carter this past Monday, thinking it was going to need rodding adjustment, as a handful of pulls felt uncomfortable, stiff and awkward.
My first move was to adjust the pedal height, my second was to bring the knee levers in close to his legs (The stops on pro grade Carters fails to impress me, one set screw broke on me)
He played it and pronounced it solved.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Al Carey
From:
Dublin, NH USA
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Posted 24 May 2012 3:19 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
If you want to move a right-moving knee's resting position AND that lever has free travel before it starts pulling a change, you'll need a rod pull, the little barrel-shaped deals that hold the rod in the bellcranks. Pull the rod out of the bellcrank, slip a pull onto the rod and run it down til it sits about 1/16 from the finger. You need a bit of slack in there. You should also see one of those barrels on one rod of each of your *KLs. They are on there to keep the levers from flopping over and sending the rod ends beyond the endplate. |
Thanks for all the detail Lane, that's extremely helpful!
_________________
Sierra U-12, Gretsch 6120, Fender Tele, old tube amps, etc... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 May 2012 7:25 pm
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I like to think that the musicality of the changes must be considered. For instance, I often do the E-lower very slowly, so it's good for that change to have more movement. On the other hand, I seldom find it necessary to do the E-raise slowly, so that change can be quicker. Same thing on the floor. The A-pedal gets "milked" all the time, but the B-pedal doesn't require as much movement, because it's only a half-tone, but also because that half-tone change doesn't seem as "musical" when done slowly.
YMMV, of course.  |
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