P/P adjustment

Dave Alfstad · From: Indianola, IA USA

I have a 1976 Emmons P/P. My 4th string lower won't quite lower enough to be in tune. I have also noticed this on my 2nd string lower a full tone, but I often just compensate with the bar. When I turn the tuner screw at the endplate the pitch only goes down so far and then no more even though I keep turning the tuner. Is there an adjustment to a collar or something that I need to make?
I hope I am describing the problem well enough. I know how to tune my guitar, but I don't know what to do when I try to tune a string for a lower and I can't get enough out of the tuning screw.

Dave

Randy Gilliam · From: San Antonio, Texas, USA

Dave Check the Lever and see if it has a adjustment too let the string lower more, I am Not a Expert! Randy G.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Could be a few things

SLACK: You might not have enough slack in before the 4th string pulls to allow the full lower. Loosen the pull collars and set the distance of the lower, then re-adjust the amount of "raise" slack accordingly

LEVER STOP: make sure you have enough knee lever travel to provide the distance needed for the full lower.

richard burton · From: Britain

As Tony says, you may need to adjust the collar on the 4th string raise rod to give more slack.

Get under your steel and operate the 4th string lowering lever, at the same time observing the raise rod that's ultimately connected to the C pedal.

You can then see if the collar on the raise rod needs to be moved back (unlikely, unless you have changed the string gauges), or if the C pedal is stiff and not moving enough to allow the 4th lower, or indeed the C pedal cross-shaft could be stiff (seen that before now)

Observe also the F lever raise mechanism for any stiffness/fouling

Dave Alfstad · From: Indianola, IA USA

Thanks guys. I wrote this in haste before bed last night and I don't know what I was thinking. The problem that I am having is actually with the 8th string. I did change strings yesterday, and I switched from stainless to nickel strings, but they are all the same gauges.
I'm pretty sure the levers themselves are functioning properly. I will have to check the collars later today.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

two more thoughts...........

1] make sure the "return" spring is pulling the 8th string changer assembly all the way back against the guitar after engaging and releasing the E-->Eb lever. If it isn't, you may not have enough total excursion for the full lower.

2] it's not uncommon to have to adjust pedal and lever travel going from nickel to stainless steel. Having never used stainless, I can't be sure but I thought that SS requires a longer throw than nickel for any given change.

Russ Wever · From: Kansas City

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

Dave, Your raise on that string needs a little slack between the collar and the bellcrank. It doesn't take much but I am guessing as Russ alluded that your guages are just slightly different. Therefore the change in the string lower.

Dave Alfstad · From: Indianola, IA USA

When I engage the E lever, I can use my finger to push the changer finger back against the body, and the pitch lowers further. I tried to see what is causing it to not go back on it's own but to no avail.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I'm surprised that none of the P/P experts here have seen your post. I'm certainly not one, but I do have an old single neck 8. It sounds like your changer is in tune and you just don't have enough movement on the linkage to accomplish the full lower.

Since you have stated it was the 8th string rather than the 4th, Without seeing it, I'd guess the same as some others have that there's not enough slack in the raise linkage, provided you also raise the 8th string, to allow the lower linkage to push all the way to the endplate. Also, make sure that your set collar hasn't slipped on the push rod.

I'll defer to one of the other brothers to outline the slack set up procedure as I haven't done it for a while and wouldn't want to give you bad advice. Also the 4th string may be affected.

Nickel strings have more stretch than do stainless, so you might need more travel to accomplish the same note.

Edit: Here's a link to an old thread. This concerns the 4th string mostly, but the procedures should be the same. http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=197968&highlight=string+lower+emmons+push+pull

It also contains the ph.# of Mike Cass, noted Push/Pull expert. Other forumites who can help, Tommy Cass, Lynn Stafford.

Kirk Eipper · From: Arroyo Grande, Ca.

I changed gauges and from nickle to stainless. Made the raises get in the way of the lowers.
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bill dearmore · From: Belton,Tx.,USA

just a quick note about the push-pulls....NEVER take off all 10 strings at once...one at a time works much better! That will get rid of these kinds of problems. Smile

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

No expert. But it takes more throw,(Travel to pull a nickel wound string to pitch than a stainless.

Now you've gone with nickel, it's taking a tad more travel to pull the 8th to pitch. Therefore you took a little slack out of the system, so to speak.And now there's not enough slack to let the string lower to pitch.

Bottom line you can go back with stainless. or re-tune the changer for the 8th string lower.

Just remember when tuning the changer. Tune the lowers first. Then the raise's.

In your case. Back off the 8th string rod tuner.( Most don't have an 8th string rod tuner. Sorry forgot.) if you don't. Slide the collar that pulls string 8. Just a tad.towards the key side end-plate. Till the 8th will drop to pitch.Once you accomplish that. You'll need to add just a tad bit of travel to the knee that raises the 8th. Once you get enough travel for the 8th to lower and raise to pitch.(Be sure the 8th string is pulling firm to the stop.) The 4th string will now be sharp. So tune the 4th string rod tuner.(Back off till you get string 4, the F note in tune.)

It's really easy to do.Been doing it since i was 12. But I'm not good at explaining it. I just re-read my post.
Sad

Maybe someone with a gift for writing will see the post. And write it out in a less confusing way.

bb

Lynn Stafford · From: Ridgefield, WA USA

Dave,

You're getting some great advise here from everyone concerned. Now that you're aware that changing types of strings (even just brands) can cause issues, you need to decide to stick with what you've been using or not, as Bobby mentioned.

There are several things that can prevent the lowers from reaching their stops. The following is best done with the guitar inverted on a bench and supported, so you can pluck the strings while you work on the various under carriage parts. Before you do anything, make sure that all of the bell cranks are not loose on their shafts! You need to first check for the needed clearance on the raise rod collars against all of the bell crank swivels (both 4th string raises and 8th string raise) as well as the "back stop" (if you have one) on the F lever for clearance while manually lowering the fingers for strings 4 and 8 against the stop screws on the end plate. While you do this, have your tuner hooked up to make sure these strings are in tune when you lower and raise them manually at the changer. Also you may want to back off on the stop collar next to the angle bracket for the E lever to make sure it is not preventing the strings from reaching their lowering stops. This can be reset once you're happy with everything. There should be a shock spring approx. 1/4" long on the 8th string drop rod between the swivel and set collar and no spring on the 4th string drop rod. As long as you're going through this, you should check the return spring tension for at least strings 4 and 8, as too much (or too little) can also cause problems when lowering. You only need enough to firmly hold the lowering fingers against the body after they are fully lowered. any more and you'll end up with stiff levers (or pedals on the C neck). Any less and you'll have inconsistant open tuning. Also, make sure the fingers are well lubed and free to move and not bound up on the axel. Once this is all done, you'll want to adjust the set collars (by the bell cranks) so that both fingers reach bottom on the end plate screws at the same time and you hear an audible click as you do. Once you're happy with the lowers and have reset the stop for them, just start adjusting the raises and and all of their respective stops. If you need any more help, just email me your number and the best time and I'll be happy to call you.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford

STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)

Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)

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Dave Alfstad · From: Indianola, IA USA

Guys, I can't thank you enough for the help. I messed with it a bit and it is now in tune, although I can't go any lower at all. I played last Saturday night and it stayed in tune quite well, but I'd really like to have a little more headroom from that tuner.

I am finishing up a semester of school here and I'm swamped. As soon as my workload lightens a bit I plan to turn it upside down and have a closer look, taking all the advice I've received on here.
Thanks again.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Lynn is telling you "like it is"

I urge you pay attention to his advice on "timing the changes". If one change "bottoms out" before the other, you have the added resistance of pulling (or pushing) against the changer to finish the other change. This can make the difference btw a p/p that plays like a truck vs one that plays as easy as a modern guitar.

Also keep in mind that you can tune the changer by working the individual raise and lower fingers manually with the guitar belly-up position. If you make sure that the fingers are either stopping against the body (pulls) and stopping against the lower row of screws (lowers) and the open notes are tuned with the upper row (with the guitar upside down), you can time your changes by sight alone - without even having to use a tuner

Tommy White · From: Nashville

All good advice. .As Lynn said, the very first thing I check is bellcrank slipping on the cross shafts. It is a most common malfunction to an older round cross shaft guitar, especially pp Emmons. I routinely tighten all allen screws just to be safe.

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