Is a 10-string non-pedal guitar a viable product?

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I've been playing some non-pedal gigs of late, using an S-10 Marlen strung in standard C6 tuning, but not using the pedals/pedal rack.

I'm very fond of Allison non-pedal guitars and in fact plan on representing the company in some fashion, including John's excellent line of high-end acoustic guitars, which is his primary product. Anyway, I'm arranging with John A. to make an S-10 console for me, similar in style to his current design of 8-string non-pedal guitar.

John wants to expand his sales in non-pedal axes and one of the big questions is this:

Is a 10-string a viable product for him to design and build?

IOW, would anyone out there in forumland prefer a 10-stringer to an 8-stringer?

I would say that I've found that having the F note (s.9) and the D note (s.1) in the 10-string tuning is essential for extra and great chord opportunities.

FWIW, the tuning I'm using for non-pedal 10-string is (lo-hi) D F A C E G A C E D.
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Mike Neer · From: NJ

I am going to get a 10 string Clinesmith. I don't know if it's viable--it seems more like an individual thing. I need it because there are a bunch of chords I need that aren't there for me in my 8 string tuning, because I plan on playing steel in small group settings, like trio and quartet with possibly no other chordal instrument.
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Brad Bechtel · From: San Francisco, CA

Personally I have six and eight string guitars and find plenty of music in those. At least in my experience, ten strings makes the string spacing a bit too narrow for my tastes. I'm trying to learn to play pedal steel, but the string spacing has been a problem.
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George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

As a Builder , In my experience , having a Sponsor to help off set costs and to add input to the R&D of a new instrument offering is essential. Herb is fulfilling that for John Allison. Herb's known artist status helps big time in his endorsement and sales representation.

You guys are already way ahead of the game. Go For It !!

We make 8 Strings and have no plans to make 6 or 10 strings in our line of instruments, this alone will widen your sales potential. As the market widens it is good for all the builders.

The Plus of a 10 String set up is most favored by Experienced Players with Advanced Knowledge of the C6 tuning. Those lower strings as described open up a lot of fantastic chords and single notes.

Congratulations on the adventure to both Herb and John for a Texas Style 10 string Steel.
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HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Herb.......I don't think that a 10 string non pedal steel is viable if we're speaking of keeping guitars in stock......if a builder can gear up for making a 10 stringer at little cost, and make them to order, then yes.....it's viable.....

IMO, most non pedal players looke for 6 or 8 strings......if a pedal steeler is looking to play non pedal then most likely they would look for 10 strings......

I recently sold an S10 non pedal Lamar (with legs)...a beautifully made guitar......I had no bites on it at all domestically......I ended up selling it to a fellow in Australia.......because.......he couldn't find an 8 string steel and so he bought it with the intention of removing two strings......

Michael Lee Allen · From: Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois

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Michael Lee Allen · From: Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois

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Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

10s are a niche market within a niche market.
I'm about to pull the trigger on a ten to experiment with expanded diatonic vs Levitt tunings, and unless either explode with benefits my 8s will remain my mains. For 10s to truly be a viable market there would need to be a popularity craze like the hula hoop, not gonna happen.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

The only way I think it would really become more popular is if more pedal steel players started playing lap steel.
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Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

i ran through this question for a year before ordering my Clinesmith...10 string or 8 string - on paper, it really makes more sense to go 10, esp if you come from D-10 pedals, 2 extra strings are 2 additional possibilities - however, when it got down to playing, those added strings just got in the way for me - the beauty of the non-pedal (to me) is to keep it clean and uncluttered. i just found the 8 strings/spacing so perfect for what i needed.
You see Reese & Billy Robinson or any of the other 10 / 12 players - and they have a mastery of that, and its easy for the "amature" player to say, that is what i NEED, but in my case, i went with the shoe that fit best.

Herb and these other players are on a completely different level and to them they may say why not take the extra strings...
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I find that my seven string Rickenbacher gives me everything I've ever needed after some sixy years of playing.

If I want ten strings I simply play my Emmons and ignore the pedals. It works for me.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Herb,
I don't like to throw cold water on your endeavor but I think the market for 10 string non-pedal steels can be summed up in three words: slim and none. Sad

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Rickenbacker made a 10-string Bakelite guitar, and also a 10-string JB model console guitar. Epiphone and Valco made E-harps in 10 string configuration, and Todd Clinesmith also currently makes a 10 stringer in both wood neck and metal neck varieties. So obviously there isn't a total lack of product in the marketplace...

Allison steel guitars will primarily be 8-string instruments, as they are now. John and I were discussing whether or not a few S-10s might be sold in a year, say 3 or 4?

We really won't know until a couple-three get built and sold, based on their availability to the marketplace. There might be a bunch of players who would like the extra strings but don't have anything being offered that would appeal to them currently.

Like introducing any new product, there's an element of risk involved. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I think the problem is that there are no real definitive 10 string tunings other than the Alkire tuning and the more obscure Morrell E13 and Reece Anderson tunings. For most, it's experimental and individualistic. Personally, I see it as a necessity, but that's just me.

Like I said, I think pedal steel players would be more comfy with a 10 string.
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Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Mike
I think you're ignoring the standard 10-string C6 tuning found on pedal steels, which is most commonly used by pedal steel players.

These players are very aware of the tuning and what the pedals do, so their (my/our) visualization of the fretboard is already in place; that is, the common slants for pedals 5 and 6 are easily accomplished, and single-string melody pockets are more easily visualized.

I was with Bob Hoffnar and John today... Bob owns both S10 and D10 non-pedal Clinesmiths... and we were discussing the string spacing issue. The spacing would have to be somewhat wider than a pedal steel and perhaps a shade narrower than a Stringmaster. I really am fond of the twin-pickup config of the Allison, made by Rio Grande pickups. Closest in timbre to a SM I've found, but with more presence and depth.

I'm not giving up pedal steel by any means; but I have some playing opportunities open up in which I don't need to lug a D-10 Emmons to the gig. I have an S10 Marlen currently rigged up, but even that's too much to carry around if I don't need to.

Yes, I see the instrument as one for a pedal steel player who wants an easily carried S-10 console that allows him the extra chordal abilities that the lower strings yield. Or an adventurous 8-string player who sees more possibilities with more strings.

I don't see the instrument as appropriate for someone who's so set in their ways as to be averse to anything other than what they're used to. Since non-pedal steel in general seems to be a haven for many traditionalist-type players, I'd expect there to be a reluctance amongst many to see the value in the extra strings.

But we're only thinking about making 3-4 a year, running them up the flagpole, and seeing who salutes. Smile

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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Sounds like a grand idea to me.

Frankly, I hope more pedal players do start playing non-pedal--it would give it a little more credibility in the community and I'm sure it would offer up some new directions.
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John Allison · From: Austin, Texas, USA

This is an interesting project for me. When Herb mentioned it, I was definitely receptive and the idea of offering a well designed, good sounding 10 string is intriguing as a marketing project. I agree that the market is small, but we're a small, flexible shop and don't need big numbers to make a design project viable. In this case it would be, in large part, an iteration of a product we already have in our line, so the R and D curve isn't particularly steep. The question of exactly what to offer in terms of string spacing, scale length, etc., is a bit of a poser, but I think we'll come up with a couple of prototypes and see what happens.

As concerns 10 strings vs 8 strings, I'm personally pretty old school (I'm still torn between taking perverse pride in my "G-on-top" Western Swing habit and adapting to the "D-on-top" world of possibilities) and 8 strings suits me pretty well. So well, in fact, that I'm quite happy with 8 strings even on a pedal steel.

That being said, I've been working on a design for a 9 string because I really, really like a high 3rd note on an E13 tuning, but can't stand to give up the low E - that leaves a hole between the 1 and Dom7 in the low end. As Herb mentioned, Bob Hoffnar plays a 10 string NP as do some other very accomplished players and there seems to be reasonable interest in the 10-string Leavitt tuning, not to mention the concept of standard 10-string C6 that PS players are used to.

As I mentioned above, the question of spacing is a key. I have an idea that I'll come up with a design based on my S-8 that easily accomodates a 10-string PS spacing or a 9-string Stringmaster-style spacing. It may be that a 10-string Stringmaster-spaced steel is somewhat unwieldy and the pickups might prove to be problematic (big coils, more wire, more k-ohms resisitance...whatever).

But, speaking of pickups, Bob Hoffnar (yeah, the three of us spent a good part of the day hanging out and talking about steels...not too shabby as workdays go) will probably be involved in making some custom pickups for the project. His 10-string PS pickups are just the best and I'll want to offer that as an option as well as as developing a proprietary design for the 9-stringers.

More to come...
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John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

On the What to do part of this ---

You should plan 12 samples in the 1st year, built in 4 lots of three pieces.

These will serve as the proto (3 Just get your feet wet on the tools and all of the spacing blah blah. )

The Next 3 will be into samples (fixable minor tweeks figured out)

The 3rd 3 will be actual pre production pieces

The 4th 3 will be actual models pretty close to ultimate design - now honed in a lot.

The protos and samples are the easiest to sell , because we always knock off a ton of coins for blems and not quite the final target set up, but all of these are way good enough to sell even if there are serious finish blems and such. In my experience there are an entire mind set of people that want Used - broken and damaged things.

By the end of the 12 you will be up to or near your full asking price - will have sused out perphial stuff like - legs - cases - 34deluxe stands - and other details in electronics and whole enchilada.

So far as will the market accept?, Totally No Worries. There are at least 50 players that will take these in the first 12-24 months.

John and Herb already know this, I am simply encouraging them to go with full confidence.
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Instructional DVDs
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Rose Sinclair · From: Austin, TX, USA

I'm an 8-string non-pedal player, but I've been moving into 10-strings and loving all the new chord possibilities -- great for playing swing and old standards. I've got a 10-string Jerry Byrd Rickenbacker console, as well as a triple-neck Fender with two 8-string necks and one custom 10-string neck. The tuning I've been using is (low to high) F A C E G A C E G D so I'm using my usual 8-string tuning, adding an F on the bottom and a D on the top. (I have to say, I am intrigued by Herb Steiner's tuning, and may have to experiment with that.) In any case, I feel like there's definitely a place for more 10-string non-pedal steels and I'm psyched about John Allison's venture, and it sounds like he's assembling an interesting team with Herb and Bob Hoffnar. How about packaging the new steel with a new Herb Steiner 10-string non-pedal course?

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

And.....if 10 strings are good.....why not 12?

Peter den Hartogh · From: Cape Town, South Africa

May I suggest exchangeable bridges and nuts as a standard?

Bill Cunningham · From: Atlanta, Ga. USA

Brother Herb,

I don't consider myself a NP player but I own a 12 string Superslide with Reese's tuning that I like to noodle around on at home. I really like the voicing I can get with the 9 and M7 on top. I play with three finger picks but the wide grips are a challenge. That challenge would be overcome if I gave up my day job and devoted more time to practice.

Anyway, the marketing question raised in my mind was, "Hasn't this opportunity been addressed with the Superslide?" It's been on the market a long time. Not being a real NP player maybe it has shortcomings I don't recognize in string spacing, scale length, or tone? I guess it's not really a "console" either? The Freedom Stand was not MSA's finest work IMO.

The same question can be asked regarding the Sierra Howard R posted above.

If I am off topic I would welcome a separate thread or E mail from the experts.

BTW, the TSGA show was good but just not the same without your smiling face. Hope to see you soon.

BC
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Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA

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