Stage One and Fender 212R Problem

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

I have a Stage One which is connected to my Fender Frontman 212R amp.

Does anyone else use this combination?
If you do, do you have the following problem too?

The problem is this:

Using an aggressive attack with any grip, say, 6 5 4, I get these screaming harmonics that persist after pick blocking the grip just used.
A gentle attack also causes these screaming harmonics.

PS.
I like my Stage One very much.
I'm not that keen on the Fender 212R.
The high end is way too overpowering.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

1: Are your ring and pinky fingers damping the strings on the back side of the bar?

2: What did you set the knobs on??

3: Are you, like Tele pickers, banging the strings off your nails as you pick?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

I have removed the YouTube video.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Dampen strings properly behind the bar.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I agree with Georg, it sounds (and looks) like you aren't dampening all the strings behind the bar.

Quentin Hickey · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

OK so to me it looks like you are using youre picks to block the strings. Maybe when you set youre picks back down on the strings it is creating a harmonic type sound. Try moving you're pick hand down more like around the 17th fret and try it again to see if this stops the ringy harmonic type sound.
Quentin

Quentin Hickey · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

After looking at the first video it looks like you should have youre fingers down more on the strings behind the bar as well. Trial and error, with the suggestions here you should be able to figure it out, good luck.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'll echo what they've said already, and include a link to a Mickey Adams video, chosen almost at random.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vhMcIM4yyM

Notice it almost looks like he uses his ring finger and pinky to anchor his bar hand? That's not all he's doing.
He's also exerting a bit of damping pressure, keeping the strings on the back side of the bar from making that noise.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Hans, as others have said here, there is nothing wrong with your rig. You need to learn proper left hand bar dampening technique. You are not dampening the strings behind the bar as you should with your fingers resting on the strings. Maybe get a Jeff Newman video on left hand technique here off the Forum. It will show you.

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

I've just completed a lengthy session of troubleshooting.

I began, as suggested, with the bar fingers lying on the strings.
In my video I had not done this properly.
This did not, however, resolve the problem.
What did fix the problem was pressing the right palm firmly on the strings.
But that was impractical.
I was unable to play with the palm pressed down firmly.

So I tried the following, and here's what I found:

Individually picking any one string required considerable downward pressure on all of the other strings when the picked string was muted.
I found, for example, that strings 4 3 2 were particularly prone to screaming harmonics when string 5 was picked.
So I placed a bit of rolled up lens cloth underneath strings 1 to 4.
But then I had to do the same for strings 6 to 10.
I wanted to see if I could isolate which strings were the problem.
It be came apparent that the muting pressure was not sufficient with the cloth, neither a bit in front of fret 24 nor a bit behind.
I then wedged the cloth between the pickup and the strings.
When I removed the cloth from under a string then the freed string would start with the screaming harmonics when I picked string 5 again.
The actual volume of the screaming harmonics varied depending on which string was freed.

My conclusion is that it has something to do with the pickup.

The question now is, can a pickup be too close to the strings?
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

ideal distance is about the thickness of two quarters stacked
what's the spatial relationship between speakers and strings?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bo Legg · Posted 18 Feb 2012 9:45 pm

I've played my stock Stage One through a lot of amps, a seesion 500, session 400, Nashville, Vegas, several Fender tube amps, a Kustum wave amp, through eight house systems all dry and with fx and I pick block only.
I never had even the slightest hint of the problem you discribe.
When my Good Scotch tastes bad It's gotta be the water.

Todd Brown · From: W. Columbia , South Carolina

This doesn't make sense to me. Hans, why did you remove the video? I happened to watch it earlier before you deleted it. From what I could tell in the video, you aren't muting the strings behind the bar with your left hand. Also, your not muting the strings with the palm, or side of your hand, with your right hand. Your picking hand. You know what I'm saying? You were also, inadvertently I think, letting your picks touch the strings after you pluck them. Causing a harmonic type sound.

I know everyone starts and learns at different levels, but this seems like common sense to me. If this is hanging you up, you got a tough road ahead of you. Nothing is wrong with your pickup, steel, or your amp. Your technique is the problem. You need to stop stuffing lens cloth under the strings, and learn and execute proper hand positioning. Just trying to help.

Pick blocking and palm blocking seem to come natural to me. I use both constantly. I think it's best to use both. Just me maybe, I dunno....

Quentin Hickey · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

"What did fix the problem was pressing the right palm firmly on the strings.
But that was impractical. "
Some of the best players in the world do this, it's called palm muting. Check out Buddy Emmons for example.

1. make sure you are using enough bar pressure
2. make sure you are using enough finger pressure behind the bar
3. make sure youre picks come back to the strings with lots of pressure.

Final comment
You are a beginner I take it eh?? If it hours, days, weeks, keep practicing youre picking technique. if you are having that much trouble pick blocking than learn how to palm mute. I don;t think that there is anything wrong with the guitar, I can make that same sound on my guitar easy. You only made that sound on youre guitar one out of every three or four tries so you were acutally tring to make it, learn how you didnt make it.
Keep practicing!
Quentin

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

One thing I forgot to mention is that if you are pick blocking, it must not be done at a harmonic point on the string. Shift your picking hand closer to the pickup, and this may help alleviate your problem.

Doug Earnest · From: Branson, MO USA

For the responding posters here -

I have visited with Hans at length a few times about the issue he is having. He is a great guy to speak with, new to steel guitar with a great desire to learn. It's an odd problem he is having, for sure.

Hans is coming to the Dallas show and bringing his guitar with him. I have not completely ruled out the possibility that there could be a problem with the guitar as the pickup is higher than I would have liked for it to have been, done out of necessity at the time of manufacture. I was, however, satisfied that it was acceptable before it left the shop.

In Dallas, it will be re-inspected and if there is a problem with the guitar it will be made right, no matter what it takes since it is in warranty. I would probably fix it even if it wasn't in warranty. We want everyone to be happy and have a rig that encourages learning to play!

Thanks to everyone for their efforts to help. If anyone happens to live anywhere close to Hans, it would be great if you could get together.

Mickey Adams · From: Bandera Texas

Hans thank you for taking the time to meet with me in the Mullen room...I think we've sorted out the issue, and ruled out the amp/guitar combination.
Please advise me when you've gotten your bar modified as we discussed. Ill be anxious to hear that we have effectively addressed the issue, and resolved it so you can continue making progress!!>...Mickey
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Roger Cox · From: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA

I bought a Stage One from Doug back in August and have been very happy with it.

But more than that, I am impressed with Doug's response to Hans with his problem. It is great to see that Doug is willing to give such great customer service.
_________________
Roger

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

Thanx Mickey
Your answer will come mid May
3 weeks hang gliding in LA,
starting Wednesday noon,
is where I'm currently headed.
Your help was most appreciated
Shall I post my answer here
or on Youtube as you'd suggested?
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

The reason for my problem has been found thanx to Mickey's help while in Dallas.
I goes as follows.
On my left hand I am missing the tip of my ring finger and all of my thumb.
This, in combination with the modified bar I am using, allows only the tip of my middle finger to mute behind the bar.
Add to this the fact that my ring finger can't mute where my middle finger is unable to contact the strings and you get those screaming harmonics.
When I get back to Canada, mid May, I will get my bar modified in some, as yet to be determined, manner, that will allow me to properly mute.
Will post when I've had the bar modified.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Possibly an outrigger on the trailing side with a soft surface to dampen it?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Quentin Hickey · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Hans, glad to hear that you got the prblem rectified. It is impossible or very hard to learn an insturnment like this when physical road block inable you.

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

OK, Mickey, Quinton and everyone who suggested that blocking behind the bar was the problem, you were right.

I've changed the manner in which I hold the bar and this has allowed my fingers to lie flat on the strings. This alone made a huge difference.
Furthermore I've begun having the nose of the bar follow the uppermost string being played.
Lastly I've made a concerted effort to palm block.
I now again enjoy playing tremendously.

Oh, and getting the Nashville 112 did wonders for the overall sound. My wife is quite happy about the new sound.

Thanx, everyone who tried to help my with my problem.

PS I gave my youngest son the Fender 212R. His friends were amazed that I just gave him the amp. Sounds good with a guitar.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box

Quentin Hickey · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Thats great Hans! You are off and running to the races now.
Quenitn

Bill Mayville · From: Las Vegas Nevada * R.I.P.

anything.
Hi Buddy.jeff Newman wrote quite an article on using twin ,
any brand of speakers.
some may sound good ,but most don't.
Bill
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06 Jackson Commemorative ,S 10
Black.For Sale . $18,000 Kidding

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