SOME RESULTS ARE IN...Help me find a steel that does this..

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

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NOTE: RESULTS POSTED DOWN BELOW A DOZEN POSTS FROM HERE
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Folks-

The goal:
I'm still pretty new to steel, haven't played a lot of brands yet...am trying to find an E9, S-10 or SD-10 steel that sounds great (see below for what this means to me!), low maintenance & modern design (construction details) stays in tune and doesn't have much cabinet drop, and weighs around 30 lbs or so, so it might be under 50 in flight/road case. Price is not the main consideration.

The story:
I'm in two bands (country rock, mostly) that are about to start touring, both by car and plane..
I play only E9, NOT C6. I did a controlled experiment (three steels, three types of amps, two players, all combinations, same space and time) to see where I stood...looking for a tone that has some personality, can cut through in a rock band, and isn't shrill or flat. I play VOX-type tube amp (Matchless) in one band (more rock, want to be noticed, I am the lead player) and MB-200/15"SICA/BlackBox in the other band (more country, want smoother tone, the solid-state amp does that). Also had a Fender Pro Reverb for the test....

The Situation so far:
I have a Rains SD-10 with a Trutone. Tone is great...Crisp highs, full lows, warm, clear midrange, through any amp. But it weighs a ton. Well, 65 lbs in the road case. (40 by itself). Cabinet drop OK but not wonderful, stays in tune pretty well. Pretty easy to work on.

I also have acquired two GFIs in my search (both keyless) - an S-10 that is TOO light (bounces around), with a GFI-II pickup that is flat and lacking personality overall, and an SD-10 that is the right weight but, at least with the GFI-III pickup, is too thin on lows and lacking fullness in mids. Nice designs, stay in tune, lubricated for life...
The GFI pickups are both custom versions of an E-66... I've got a Trutone on order to see if that could make a major difference in tone, or whether it really is that the design and weight just make the tone mostly be what it is.

My questions (for those of you who graciously have read this far!):

1. I am open to suggestions for what to look at (steel/pickup) that will sound as good (and be made as well, or better) as the Rains but weigh a bunch less!
-->>>Please be specific about WHY you suggest a specific brand/model....

2. I like everything I've heard/read about Williams (beautiful, modern design), but also some say that their tone is fine on C6 neck, but thin on E9....any input there?
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Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

I've had a lot of people say they like the tone of my Williams. It's the only way to go for me. Larry
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Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

I would give your GFI SD10 another chance ... it is in the right weight range.
My Ultra keyless sounded like you describe, and I was quite disappointed with it when it arrived. Different and a bit heavier strings - I put on Jagwire LG Series, a match-box and an LMB-3 in series before the VP, and it became full-range sounding with good sustain - not so far behind my heavy Dekleys that it bothers me in practice.

Herby Wallace · From: Sevierville, TN, R.I.P.

Steve, In my opinion, the new Mullen Discovery model is the way to go. I have been playing and selling Mullen guitars since 1984 and are my favorite on the market today. The new Discovery model only weighs 27 lbs out of the case and 44 in the case. The tone is very close to the top of the line G2 model but a lot less money. It also plays great, stays in tune, and is very well built as all Mullen guitars. I actually have 2 on order which are not sold yet and will be arriving before very long. I have a red and a black one coming. Also, for what it's worth, I just returned last week from the great show in Dallas, and there were more Mullen guitars played on the main stage than any other brand. If I counted correctly the number was 11.

Herby Wallace

Joshua Gibson · From: Arizona, USA

Hey Steve,
it's going to sound like I am echoing Bill Stafford from here on the forum but I've come to belive that if Your looking for light(but not too light)tuning stability & a pretty good tone overall(I'm even talking about playing through a Crate V50 tube amp)Mitsuo Fujii's EXCEL pedal steels are excellent Smile

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

St
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From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme

Fred Justice · From: Mesa, Arizona

Steve, take a look at our Pro Lite.
It might just be what your looking for, a Pro guitar in a light weight S-10 with a 3 inch pad. Has all the bells and whistles the pro model does with out the shinny and the Lbs. and the price. Very Happy

http://www.fredjusticemusic.com/id28.html
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Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Just my take on this: I think you need a different amp, maybe not a different guitar. I've never used a
Vox tube amp for steel, and would never consider using one. I do have an MB-200, and don't particularly care for the sound of it either. My opinion; if you want a good steel sound, get a steel amp. Amps I own and like: Stereo Steel rack system, Peavey NV 400, Peavey LTD 400, Peavey NV 112. If you will be micing your amp, the NV 112 is a great amp.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

So here is where I am in my quest:
1. I've ordered a Trutone for the GFI SD-10 (the S-10 is just too light for my "assertive" playing style) to see what difference the pickup will make in the tone...

2.A fellow Forum member has graciously offered to part with his beloved Williams and send it to a new home....I played a Williams at a friend's house and liked it just fine. Plus, being an old 6-string guitar player, the idea of a sunburst guitar made from real wood just has a certain appeal...and it has a Telonics, so I may get some of their promised Emmons growl along with the modern undercarriage...

More to come shortly....
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Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I don't believe it was the strings....I use the same ones (GHS boomers) on all my guitars, and the GFI with the GFI-IIIwas just tinny relative to the Rains and to the other GFI (with the GFI-II pickup, which wasn't tinny, but was less articulate than I wanted, compared to the Trutone in the Rains)...and I played it through a tube amp, and a SS amp with black box....

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Well, Bill, thanks for your suggestion, but amp tone is somewhat a matter of individual opinion, there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to choosing an individual style...... I don't know yours........and you don't know what style I play, and you probably have never tried a Vox with a steel. They are upper mid-range-heavy, but the Matchless mids sound like angels singing, not like every other "traditional" solid state steel amp....it records beautifully, rich, dense mids and chimey highs. And we have a bass player for lows, I play lead in that band...it leans more toward rock than pure country...and we want a unique sound for that band....
And the MB-200 has made quite a splash with people who should know whereof they speak...did you try it with a Black Box in front? I still like tubes better, but it has a really nice "modern" tone...more like the other steel amps, for when I need that tone....the other band rocks also, but is aiming for a "country" vibe, so the SS amp pushes it a bit in that direction...a Fender tube amp would have done it also...but the Black Box gives me enough tube tone for now...
I use both amps in different bands for different reasons....and people in both audiences (even musician-type people) seem to like my tone just fine...
And my experimenting also had a Pro Reverb in the mix....so I really don't think it was the amp.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

And thanks to the rest of your for your other steel suggestions....I definitely want to try out all of those at some point in my (possibly endless) quest for the perfect tone, feel, weight, and look....until I find the one I bond with..
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Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Tor Arve Baroy · From: Norway

Looking forward to hearing how the pickupchange is working out on the GFI.
I am considering the same thing. I have a truetone in a maverick(backup guitar), and a GFI 2 in my GFI Expo.
Since the GFI is my main axe, I think Im gonna change them around.
Smile

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

NOTE:
My Williams/Telonics is on its way, that will be an interesting comparison for the next part of this exploration...

The Trutone:
I got the Trutone into the GFI SD-10. Took out the GFI-III that was in there.
The description of the GFI-III on the GFI site says that it adds some highs to the GFI-II, to cut through in a band, but that it doesn't sacrifice lows to do it. I could certainly be incorrect, but it didn't sound that way to me....the GFI-II was more balanced, but lacked character, and the GFI-III certainly cut through, but lacked nice fat mids and lows.

The swap job:
After swapping 6-string guitar pickups with no trouble at all, this was a bit of a surprise. First, the GFI pocket isn't wide enough for a Trutone. The modded E-66 they put in as stock (GFI-III) has its mounting ears mostly broken off and uses a thin metal collar as a hold down device. So I filed the Trutone enough to fit, leaving just enough so that the mounting holes were still usable....Then it seems that there isn't a system of springs under the pickup to allow you to adjust height....you have to find/make a spacer to get it to the right level. What a nuisance! I made something that would get it to exactly the same height as the Trutone on my Rains (1.5 quarters)...and I won't be playing with it to see if height makes a big difference. There is a little give in the foam I used, I could raise or lower it a bit, but I think it is fine where it is. The Trutone sure look pretty...very distinguished.

The test:
Couldn't really compare the Trutone directly to the GFI-III that was in there before, of course, so I used my Rains with Trutone (19.2K ohms) as a reference and compared the GFI/GFI-III and GFI/Trutone (17.7 K ohms) to that. Since I love the Rains tone (crisp but mellifluous), this seemed a good test. This test did give me some good info on the before/after for the GFI...

Setup was steels->A/B switch->Black Box->Hilton volume->amp.
Did the test both with a SS GK MB-200/15"SICA and with a BITMO-modded Epiphone Jr. tube amp (5 watts, EL-84). Same type of strings on both steels (GHS Boomers).

I used my ears and the JL Audio spectrum analyzer app (free!) for iPhone. Played single notes, chords, low, high, pedals, riffs, etc. Over and over again....

The result:
There is a big difference, and it is a good one!
CAVEAT: My ears are tired today, a couple of really late nights the last few days, so I'll give another listen tomorrow to see if I still feel the same. I also need to test it at band practice (Tuesday) to see if it holds up in a mix.

Details:
Where the GFI-III seemed trebly, thin lows, lacking the compressed, melodious mids, and too much high end, now the amplified steels sound very much like their acoustic tone.

Acoustically and amplified, The Rains is a bit more crisp, more on the high strings (not really more bell-like, just sharper attack), similar mids and lows. The GFI sustains somewhat longer than the Rains (acoustic test, not amplified). The slightly compressed, very liquid, tonally balanced sound is there in both steels now, even more so on the GFI than the Rains in the high strings. This could be a matter of preference, not necessarily good or bad, we'll see how it holds up at band practice, the crisper Rains might work better there, or not.....both are Trutones, both great, some differences probably from guitar construction....

Conclusion:
I really like the GFI now. I thought I liked it before until I did the A/B/C test with the Rains and other steels and amps, where I really heard how thin it sounded by comparison, and started really not liking it (and bought the Williams!). It now is absolutely up there with the Rains in my mind. And at way less weight....(one of the original goals, remember?). The SD-10 is solid enough, feels good to play, and sounds great. And it is easy to work on and is lubricated for life....a keeper. The only real difference now is that he Rains feels as solid as a Mercedes, a cut above the GFI in that area. It may be just the weight/material of each of the elements combining to give that solid feel, the GFI certainly doesn't feel cheesy, has a nice feel when played, just not as solid as the Rains.

Next up:
I actually bought a Williams, it is on its way, and will be a great one to add to the comparison. The Willy is an S-10, really light, but their S10 is really an S-10.5 - closer to the GFI SD-10, with the levers significantly further back, so I'm hoping it feels right to play...and it has a Telonics, the much heralded new kid on the block in pickups...so stay tuned. I have to admit, I'm a long-time 6-string guitar guy, and I just have this strong feeling that guitars are made of wood, with pretty grain that you can see, not formica...I actually don't expect that to affect the sound anywhere near as much as many other construction details, but I know I'll feel better playing a wood guitar...so we'll see...

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Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Two points:
1. I gigged with both GFIs and the Rains with their original pickups (GFI-II, GFI-III, Trutone) and all seemed fine...it was only getting them in the same room with the same amps that really showed the differences...I'd like to think of myself as a bit of a tone snob, but it may actually boil down to personal preferences rather than "better" or "worse"....YMMV. I still stand by my results, but they are for me, maybe not for you.

2. The one aspect of the tones that I've been thinking about is the crisper attack on the Rains vs. the longer sustain on the GFI. I've always wondered why pedal steels had such a round, blooming tone, vs. 6-string guitars. I think it may be that there is a built-in compression happening on pedal steels. The Rains is built like a rock, and the only thing happening when you play is all in the string itself. So you get the full attack, and then it dies out. The GFI is way less massive, and possibly it is absorbing some of the initial attack and then giving that energy back as longer sustain....I always run a compressor (set at minimum compression) with the Rains (except for this test), and it definitely makes it more like the GFI in attack and sustain....

Does this make sense to anyone?
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https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

Hi there Steve.
I put a Trutone in my GFI SD 10 3x5 (see my post somewhere ).It truly does make a difference in a good and positive way.I did not like the GFI II pup at all- as you say very bland and sounded too "electric " to my ears.My guitar has good acoustic sustain and attack .The Trutone seems to couple the string vibration and the frame /body influence together better than the stock unit does.Pehaps GFI should fit this PUP as standard.
Regards Dave

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Dave-
Yes, I read that post a while ago and it got me to thinking....and then to action!

If GFI doesn't offer it as standard, as many other manufacturers do, at least they should make the pickup pocket big enough to take other pickups without major work....not everyone wants a humbucker.
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Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

I couldnt agree more Steve

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