I need some picking help

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Ok, this is for the guys that do country-rock pickin'. There are two solos that come to mind. In the solo to "Panama Red" by New Riders of the Purple Sage (Buddy Cage), and the solo in "Hello Trouble" by the Desert Rose band (JayDee Maness), the solos start with a string of notes that seem to start on the 8th string and run up the 7th, 6th, and 5th strings. But they aren't standard 8th notes, which would be easy. It's best described as a "flurry" of notes with no particular timing, that lead into the 8th note solos that follow. My question is, Is there any special technique to doing this. Do they just alternate the thumb and finger real fast, or what? Do they start one or two frets before the main fret, and run up to it? And please, I am looking for help only from those players who have actually figured this out and have played it accurately. No guesses. Thanks for your help. .. Jeff

Terry Wendt · From: Nashville, TN, USA

Jeff,

I'd nearly bet my right hand it is a double thumb that Jay Dee is using... though I have no actual proof. Many years ago Doug Jernigan told me he used his thumb to pick twice in a row on a lick (I believe it was used by him on OBS) and I could hardly believe it were possible... but, sure enough, that's what he was doing. I have since been able to cop it, though DJ and JD (and probably BC too-though I am not familiar directly with his style) have years on most of the rest of us with regards to that double thumb "truffle" of notes style! I'd love to hear Jay Dee chime in here and let us know for sure what he is doing. I have wondered too - If you're out there Jay Dee - can you help us out here?

2pT

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TheEarlyDays.com

and appearing regularly...
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Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Jeff, I just went and listened to "Panama Red" - I gather it is that little run that Buddy does leading into the solo that you are interested in. After listening to it I sat down and played it this way: At the eighth fret, starting on the eighth string (the note is a C) I start with the thumb,then repeat it quickly with the thumb again (same place - 8th string 8th fret) but going into a thumb and two finger "roll" (thumb on 8, first finger on 7, middle finger on 6 - the notes would be C,D and E)). This three note roll is played as a triplet, timing-wise. You then get the next note in the run simply by depressing your b pedal (turning the E into an F)while the last note in the "roll" is still sounding. This gives your right hand enough time to move up so that you can get the fifth string - basically just move your grip up two strings and you are in position to play the fifth string (with your first finger)and hit the "a" pedal. As I heard it, you would also be hitting the fourth string at that point( middle finger on the 4th string, the way I played it). The key to the timing is to get the triplet feel on that three finger roll. Some people might use the alternating thumb/middle finger approach, but what works for me is the roll. I suspect there are more articulate folks on the forum who could explain it better than I have, but I hope this helps more than it confuses. Feel free to e-mail me if I can be of any help.

[This message was edited by Bob Blair on 14 May 2002 at 06:35 AM.]

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Terry must have been adding his message at the same time as me. I think what he is describing with the "double thumb" term is the way I was trying to describe playing those two repeating notes on the eighth string with my thumb. A double thumb I can maybe do - wouldn't want to repeat it more than that or I'm sure I'd lose the rythym!

Terry Wendt · From: Nashville, TN, USA

Cool! Yeah Bob, that is what I am describing exactly. I haven't heard the PR cut, but that is what I do to achieve this sequence of notes. It is almost a "natural block" when the thumb hits the second time (to begin the "roll sequence") and when played together quickly it sounds like a "rumbling of lickity splits!" Go for it Jeff! Let those fingers fly!

2pT

------------------
TheEarlyDays.com

and appearing regularly...
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass! aLotOfSpace.com

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I just listened to both examples that Jeff mentioned in his post and to my ears, both runs do start on the 8th stg but with the Eb KL "IN" for the 1st note, release KL for 2nd note, then pick again 8 again with Thumb and go on with the "roll" from there. I do the roll as T8-I7-M6. Press the B pedal when you get to the 6th stg, then cross over with Thumb to the 5th stg then press the A pedal. I think that the "move up the stg" that Jeff mentioned is the release of the KL.
JE:-)>

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Can any of you post a little sound clip of this lick so the rest of us can follow along? Sounds intriguing...
Thanks,
jc

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

I could easily stand corrected on the 8th string part as per Jim E's observation - maybe the old ears weren't hearing so good last night. You could also move the bar instead of using the knee lever in that context. The crossover that he suggests works just as well as what I did, and in fact this morning I played it and crossed over.

[This message was edited by Bob Blair on 14 May 2002 at 10:23 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jim E
I believe what you are describing is how I always played that solo years ago. I always tried to get the Cage vibe and starting it off right was critical. Only difference is I started on the 7th fret/8th string and sluuuud on up to the C instead of using the Eb lever. I have no clue how Cage actually played it.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Thanks everyone for the help. The idea of double-picking with the thumb never occured to me. Very frustrating since I've played those songs on and off for many years, and hated them because I knew I could never get the beginning right. Unfortunately, I feel like I have to start from scratch playing them live, and flubbing them unitl I become decent at this new "double-thumb technique. Sigh.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I guess we all answered together, so there's a little duplication.

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I'm not sure how Buddy Cage did the first note (slide in/release KL), but from many many nights at the old Palamino club watching Jay Dee, he seems to like the KL release for this type of move. IMHO
JE:-)>

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Larry, do you also do it with a "double-thumb" followed by the roll?

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

I have figured out a lot of Buddy Cage/NRPS stuff (or at least, I hope so) and that sequence of notes you´re talking about is one of his "trademarks" that he does many times in various positions.
It´s interesting to note that Buddy Charleton on many tunes would do a similar move, often two frets below the no-pedals position, to kick off a solo. As some might know, he was one of Cage´s major influences.
In "Panama Red" particularly, it sounds like Buddy´s sliding up to the 8th fret rather than "double-picking". It never occurred to me to use the KL for that move. For the picking motion, alternating between thumb and middle finger works best for me.
Of course, I might be wrong. About two or three weeks ago I have been thinking about asking Buddy directly about this, that´s a strange coincidence, but sadly right now it looks like he has enough other problems

I just listened to "Hello Trouble", I do that one with my band BTW, and here instead I´m very positive about the double-picking. Only I don´t do it myself because playing Jay Dee Maness stuff note-perfect is way too far out for me.

Regards, Joe H.

[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 14 May 2002 at 11:24 AM.]

[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 14 May 2002 at 11:50 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jeff,
I've done that same move both ways (T-slide-T-I-M and T-slide-I-M-T), but now that I think about it, the slightly clumsy Thumb-Thumb move may explain why the note durations and timing sounds uneven. If I used three fingerpicks, I would probably just use a forward roll -- but I don't. My natural way to play it is the second way, with the crossover Thumb for the last note before the downbeat. Since I began the Am section with I-M on the 5th and 4th strings, it makes more sense that way for me.

I see the first note as almost a grace note (but could be a straight eighth) followed by a triplet and a quarter note.
Just my take on it. I've never even seen Buddy play, but I've certainly worn the grooves off that track on my original vinyl copy. CD's work much better for repeated playing.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 May 2002 at 12:14 PM.]

Miguel e Smith · From: Phoenix, AZ

Hey Jeff,

Just responding to your request/post under "steel players". I wish I could help more with some insight to either Buddy Cage's playing or J.D.'s. They are both so stylized and I don't think I could ever explain the "how-to's" of these great players even if I knew...and I don't. Whenever I've tried to capture another players coolness, it usually came out luke warm so I eventually just left it alone. The only general info I can offer that worked for me is to find phrases you like, put them in the easiest to reach places and then play them over and over again....oh, about a million times. When you finally play it like you really mean it...you'll probably like it and it may not sound exactly like anyone else.

Mike

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Guys,
Thanks again for the replies. But, the problem is, I don't see that double-thumb technique as right. I just listened to both songs carefully, backing them up over and over again for a few times each and, to my ears, in both solos, the opening 8th string notes are played 4-5 times before it goes to the 7th string. It's such an odd timing. It doesn't sem to start on the beat, and you can't even hear the separate notes, the effect borders on being a rat-a-tat-tat, like a machine gun. Listen carefully to it and see if you don't agree. I tried playing the double-thumb technique followed by a roll, and it doesn't seem to fit. I mean, it certainly sounds reasonably close, but it just isn't the same. I'm not convinced that it's not alternating thumb-finger, but one post said he saw JayDee do it and it's double-thumb. But I don't see how. I would practice it but but I don't know what it is I'm practicing. Playing just a double-thumb does not get you to that sound. I realize I'm beating this topic into the ground, but I really want to figure this out. If it's ok with everyone, how about if I just post a topic calling for JayDee's help? I really want to know the right way to do this, before I waste another 10 years playing it wrong. I realize I could just do it my own way, and add my own touch to it, play straight 8th notes on the beat, etc. etc. I do add my own touch to many songs where I feel I do have something to add. One group I play with does almost exclusive originals, so I have plenty of opportunity to be creative. But these are two of my all-time favorite country-rockers, and two of my all-time favorite solos, and I feel that the only way to play them is to do it like the record. I don't want to debate that point, because I realize there are different philosophies on this. But these are solos that, for me, need to be played like the record. So, unless you guys can clarify this for me a little more, maybe I'll try asking JDM. Thanks again for your help, and more advice is still welcome. .. Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 14 May 2002 at 05:51 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Jeff,
I only have the version of Panama Red from the 'Adventures of ..." album and don't have the DR tune, but I'm thinking we aren't listening to the same thing.
First few notes
First few notes at half speed

I slowed it down using Sound Forge and only hear 5 notes before the downbeat -- not sure what you mean by

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Larry, You're right. It's just B-slide-C D E G. Do you think you could slow down "Hello Trouble" the same way? If you don't have a copy, I can e-mail it to you. Thanks a ton. It sounds way simpler that I thought it was. No excuses - I just couldn't hear the pattern. You're the best.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Sure -- do it.
===============================
Dude -- that's SLIPPERY!
It's not that hard to play, though -- I nailed it after a couple of tries. It's easy to get your fingers tangled up, however. It just repeats the G after sliding up from F# (F# G G A B . . . etc). This one (obviously) starts in the pedals down position on 15. I found it much easier to use a straight crosspicking pattern: TITITI or TMTMTM. If Jay Dee does use the 'double thumb' he's a better man than I (and we all know he is

) -- I couldn't come close to making that work at that tempo.

Hello Trouble Solo - Regular Tempo
HelloTroubleSolo - Half Tempo

Way cool!
Jay Dee's the man!
LTB

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 May 2002 at 09:21 PM.]

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

OK,cool, now I can mess around with "Hello Trouble"!

Last night when I listened to PR I missed the slide up from the B - maybe had the volume too low because of sleeping kids.

Funny - I find the triplet easier to play smoothly from the fabled (and, as it turned out, apocryphal) "double thumb" approach than after the slide up from the B.

[This message was edited by Bob Blair on 14 May 2002 at 09:11 PM.]

Pete Grant · From: Auburn, CA, USA

It's thumbs.

I've watched JD and Buddy and played that kickoff as a member of the NRPS (though I only grabbed the really memorable phrases and played Pete Grant-style the rest of the time).

Thumbs.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

On the Panama Red thing,it sure sounds like T-slide-I-M-T and I've played it like that from day one - it's the easiest way to play it fast.That way you are set up to play the cajun pedal pumpin bit on strings 4&5 that follows with index and middle - whilst your thumb remains below for the in-between notes.I look at that 5 note run as a grace note into 4 eighth notes ending on the "and" before the down beat of the first bar of the solo.And at that tempo you don't have time to use a knee lever - although I often use the lever on slower variations of that lick to make it sound more precise and pedal steely.I love the way Cage sets up his solos with little things like that.It's like "Look out - here I come!"
As far as double thumbing and using the same finger twice in a row at fast tempos,it has its place but I'll always avoid it if I possibly can.It will always slow you down and it's never going to be smoother than crossing over or buying an eighth note w/a pedal move.Some few players have so much technical headroom that they can just blow through anything sideways w/awkward fingering and it doesn't even matter,but those same guys will always say that the reason they sound so fast and smooth is that they always found the easiest way to play things. -MJ-

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Here is my tab on the "Hello Trouble" solo JD played.
Hello Trouble/steel intro/key of C/E9th pedal steel



3.__________________________|_______________________________________|__}


4.__________________________|________________15~~~______13____8~_8~~|~8}


5.____________________15a~15|_15~15a_15~15a__15a~15_____13____8a_8a~|~8}


6.______________15b~15______|_______________________15b____13____8b~|~8}


7.____________15____________|_______________________________________|__}


8.__________15______________|_______________________________________|__}


9.________15________________|_______________________________________|__}


10_14a~15a__________________|_______________________________________|__}



3.{___________________________|_15_________13______10b~8b__________6______|


4.{_____15____________________|___________________________________________|


5.{_______15~15a~15_____15____|_15_________13______10a~8a__________6______|


6.{_15b_____________15b____15b|___15_14_13____12_11_______8b_7b_6b___5_4_3|


7.{___________________________|___________________________________________|


8.{___________________________|___________________________________________|



3._3b~________________|_____________15b~15~15b_13_11____|_8_11__11~~~~~~~~|


4.____________________|__________15_15~~~~~~~~_13_11R___|_8_11R_11R~~~~~~~|


5._3a~________________|_____15~15a__15a~15~15a_13_11a__8|_8_11a_11(1/2a~11|


6._3b~__15b_15~15b_15b|___15b___________________________|_________________|


7.________15_____15___|_15______________________________|_________________|


8.____________________|_________________________________|_________________|



1.__________________________________________|___________3_______


2.__________________________________________|___________________


3.__________________________________________|_________________3b


4._13_______________________8_______________|_________3____3____


5.___13~13a____13_____________8~8a___8______|____3~3a___________


6.__________13b___13b~13__________8b___8_7_6|_3b________________


7.______________________13__________________|___________________


8.__________________________________________|___________________

I start with thumb and cross over all the way up to the 7th string; then single finger(my 1st)the 6th and 5th strings....then I'm off to the races. I can play this solo no problem.....mainly because one of my only exercises I work on is the roll...TITI in groups of 4 strings.
Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 15 May 2002 at 01:43 AM.]

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