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Topic: diminished chords on C6 |
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 7 Mar 2012 8:42 pm |
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Playin in the key of F no pedals (on C6) I know you can back up one fret with pedals 5 & 6 and get a C7, but it's also a dim chord right? What dim chord would it be. Would it be the same dim chord as if playin in F on E9 and backin up a fret?
terry |
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Ian Kerr
From:
Queensland, Australia
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Posted 8 Mar 2012 2:40 am
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| If you're on fret 5 [C6]and you press pedals 5 and 6 you have Fdim.Back up one fret and on fret 4 you have Edim [OR Gdim or Bbdim or C#dim].All these are good substitutes for C7 [C13b9]to resolve back to F.On E9th it's not quite the same.When you back up one fret and use the F lever you would have F dim.So Edim etc would be back two frets.ie fret 11.And your C#[b9] is now on the 9th string. |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2012 8:50 am
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When you harmonize every note of a Maj Scale diatonically in triads, the 7th degree of the scale is the ONLY one that is NOT a Major or a minor triad....it is a diminshed triad.
In the key of C, that would be a Bdim (B-D-F)
Now notice that if you added the 5th of the C scale (G) underneath the Bdim, you get a G7. (G-B-D-F)
Voila!
So now you know that anytime you play a Bdim, Ddim, or Fdim, (...which you can get by just moving the same chord pattern up or down the neck a step and a half), you can substitute it for a G7 chord. This works on any tuning, any key,...any instrument!
*note*...if you're like me, and tend to play alot of 4 note diminished 7 chords (look it up), this rule of thumb doesn't always apply in the same way as diminished triads.  |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 8 Mar 2012 6:52 pm dim
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Thanks very much guys. I'm gonna learn this chord theory stuff one of theses days. 
terry |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 8 Mar 2012 7:44 pm
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Thanks to all for this.
_________________
To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Ron Scott
From:
Michigan
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Posted 10 Mar 2012 7:26 am
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Thanks Rick,another lesson and yes I'm on my way to learning music theory some. As long as I have been playing I guess I was too busy playing to stop and learn how I was doing it and what it all meant. The new lever is working great ,thanks to Jim Palanscar. 
_________________
Franklin D10 Stereo - 8 and 6 - Black Box-Zum Encore 4 and 5 Nashville 400,Session 400, DD3 for delay ,also Benado Effects pedal.
Steeling with Franklin's..and Zum Encore |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2012 12:59 pm
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The diminished 7th and it's repeatability/ transportational nature is a bedrock of jazz, both composition and improvisation. Every one of them repeats every three frets, so there's always one within a fret and the same one two frets away in the other direction. Talk about gateway drugs....
1
b3
b5
6
lower any single tone 1/2 step, it becomes the new root of a 7th chord. Raise any two adjacent tones (b3rd & b5th above OR 1 and b3 OR b5 and 6 OR 6 and 1) and you've made a 6th chord - somewhere  . Raising any two adjacent tones is the same as lowering the other two, just 1/2 step away. And 1/2 step down is the same as a whole step up - and vice-versa.
Last edited by David Mason on 12 Mar 2012 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2012 2:06 pm
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| Rick Schmidt wrote: |
| So now you know that anytime you play a Bdim, Ddim, or Fdim, (...which you can get by just moving the same chord pattern up or down the neck a step and a half), you can substitute it for a G7 chord. This works on any tuning, any key,...any instrument! |
Yes, but keep in mind that you might have a harmonic conflict if you use anything but the Bdim over a G7 chord. That sliding to other inversions could possibly cause a problem:
That B dim chord substitution for a G7 works because it's just the top 3 notes of the 4-note G7 chord. It's no surprise, then, that on E9 (sorry, I don't play C6) we can use the F-lever to play both at the 6th fret on, say, strings 8-6-5. We can think of that as a rootless G7 in that position, or that same position also serves as one common way to play a Bdim triad. Same notes for both chords.
So, when you play the Bdim triad as a substitute for G7, it's all good because you're only playing a three-note dim chord, and those 3 are are already part of the G7 chord. You're just playing a 'partial' G7.
But when you start with a dim triad (rather than the 4-note fully diminished) and then slide to one of the other inversions of the diminished chord like Ddim to make things more musically interesting, you end up adding a new tone to the mix -- and really changing the chord from the simple triad to the fully diminished (4-note) chord (even though you may only be picking three of those four possible notes in any given fret position). The bottom line is that this new tone is dissonant in the context of your example: a dim chord serving as the top notes of a 7th chord.
Example: starting with a dim triad and then sliding up three frets, you're now invoking tones b3-b5-6 of the original diminished chord (instead of just rearranging the order of the original triad, 1-b3-b5). In the example, that new note that gets added after sliding from Bdim to Ddim is just a half-step (one fret!) from the root of the original G7 chord the band is playing -- it's a G# note possibly clashing against the original G7 chord.
It's not just the Ddim that would cause this... this dissonant note is present in all 3 of the possible other inversions you might use. The original Bdim triad is the only one that doesn't invoke the dissonant note.
Depending on what the rest of the band is doing, the introduction of the G# note might sound too dissonant; you're playing notes from the G7b9 chord. Or, it might just sound colorful in a great way, especially in jazz. But at least be aware that bandmates might stop the song in rehearsal and say "What are you playing there? Something is clashing." Hopfully, they'll say "The chord after that slide sounds kind of outside. Love it!" |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2012 11:02 am
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Tucker is right. I was temporarily insane...or at the very least...wrong. 
I should know not to post anything before my second cup of coffee, when I'm not sitting in front of my guitar.
Although I really do have an affection for 7b9's |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2012 5:36 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
So, when you play the Bdim triad ...You're just playing a 'partial' G7.
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Piston's Harmony book makes that point in Chapter 1.
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2012 5:39 pm
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| David Mason wrote: |
| The diminished 7th and it's repeatability/ transportational nature is a bedrock of jazz, both composition and improvisation. |
It could be argued that the dim7th is used too much. That was one of George Bernard Shaw's complaints about Liszt's compositions. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2012 5:46 pm
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Piston introduces 7th and 9th chords later.
The numbers by the V chord are arranged a little differently from what we see in pop music charts, but are basically the same.
The little "o" stands for "omitted" root. I just now realized that is the source of the little "o" that signifies "diminished" in pop music charts. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2012 4:48 am
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Earnest Bovine:
| Quote: |
| It could be argued that the dim7th is used too much. That was one of George Bernard Shaw's complaints about Liszt's compositions. |
Well, composition evolves (-ed?) in the same way as anything else, something new would pop up, perhaps become trendy and over-used, then settle back into a new "rule." Beethoven might use a device strictly as a transition, and Tchaikovsky would seize upon that one little corner and blow it up into a dissonant main theme-construction. Whole-tone scales are taught as being strictly a transitional or "color" scale in the rigid, no-no oriented jazz pedagogy; it wasn't expected that Robert Fripp and the fusion guys would grab ahold of one and wank on it all night (fortunately there are only two ).
And George Bernard Shaw's complaining about Liszt reminds me of Frank Zappa bitching about John McLaughlin - criticizing the technical construction of things you don't understand and/or couldn't play in a million years cause you haven't got the chops is not a terribly appealing way to promote one's own genius. But it's a popular one!
(not quite a halo; just genius-beams shooting out of his head. It'll have to do!)
the "hindu hoodie" is a nice new effect - it's the accessorizing that makes or breaks the fashion statement! |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2012 10:26 am o my!
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| Thanks for the "o" info, Earnest Bovine. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2012 11:27 am
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| David, I know you're a big admirer of McLaughlin (not without reason), but I really don't think any objection Zappa may have expressed to JM's music came from FZ's "not understanding" the "technical construction" of it. Zappa's voluminous output includes an abundance of music that reveals an extremely sophisticated and well-educated musical mind. True, he couldn't play guitar as fast as McLaughlin. But any criticism he may have directed at JM would have come from the simple fact that tastes differ. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2012 11:45 am
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And Shaw didn't have Liszt's chops either (nobody did) but he certainly understood it enough that he could write out chord changes for a new piece after hearing it once. Shaw knew harmony inside and out, could play symphonic music (very slowly) at the piano reading from orchestral scores, and wrote volumes of very entertaining music criticism on newspaper deadlines.
In many cases he reviewed the premiere English performances of Wagner, Brahms, etc. in the days when that was the only way to hear music. I love reading his reveiws because it lets me imagine what it must have been like to hear this stuff when it was new and shocking, and of course I disagree with most of his opinions. Maybe that's what music critcism is about. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2012 11:47 am
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| David Mason wrote: |
| Whole-tone scales are taught as being strictly a transitional or "color" scale in the rigid, no-no oriented jazz pedagogy; it wasn't expected that Robert Fripp and the fusion guys would grab ahold of one and wank on it all night |
Liszt also overused (wanked) whole tone scales, a hundred years earlier. Poor guy. He tried so hard to be a great compser. Great hands, great ears, great intelligence and insight, but no originality. |
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