My Jazz C6 Copedant

Guest · Posted 30 Apr 2002 4:00 pm

I've developed a copedant for the C6 tuning that works for me, especially for playing jazz standards. I'd be interested in comments. You can see the copendant at:
http://www.skobrien.com/C6Copedant.pdf

The key advantage I was looking for was to provide easy access to the key progressions and modulations that are common in jazz. Of course that means II-V-I and VI-II-V-I and cycle of fifths II-V (e.g. Gm7-C7-Cm7-F7-Fm7-Bb7). I also wanted easy access to the IV and IVm which are used so often.

This copedant not only meets that need, I can play most any jazz tune with the first two pedals and two knees. The other three pedals are still valuable, but not essential.

Here's a quick overview of how this copedant can be used. I'll demonstrate with "I Can't Give You Anything But Love" in the key of G.

The A section is a I-VI-II-V progression (G6, E9, Am7, D9). G6 is open at 7th fret, E9 is at the 11th fret with pedal 5, Am7 is at the 9th fret with pedal 4 and 5, and D9 is at the 9th fret with pedal 5.

The B section is a typical II-V-I modulation up a fourth (Dm7, G7, C6) and then another modulation up a whole step resolving back to G (Em7, A7, Am7, D7, G6). Em7 is open at the 5th fret, G7 is at the 7th fret with pedal 4, and C6 is at the 9th fret with pedal 4 and 5. The rest is just a continuation of the same.

All of that, and I haven't touched any knee levers.

Here's a quick diagram of some important chord positions for the key of G using pedals 1 and 2 and RKR.

G6 - 7th fret, open
G7 - 7th fret, pedal 4
Gm7 - 7th fret, pedal 4 and 5
Gm6 (also Bb9) - 7th fret, pedal 5
E9 - 11th fret, pedal 5
Am7 - 9th fret, pedal 4 and 5
D9 - 9th fret, pedal 5
C6 - 9th fret, pedal 4 and 5
Cm6 - 9th fret, pedal 4 and 5, RKR

There is much more this copedant is capable of. I'd be interested in any comments you might have and am eager to answer any questions.

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Stephen O'Brien
skobrien@skobrien.com

[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 30 April 2002 at 05:49 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Is that the right link? I don't see a pedal 1, pedal 2 or LKR on the chart.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Guest · Posted 30 Apr 2002 4:39 pm

ok, but aside from having incorrect pedal numbers and lever names, what do you think?

thanks, b0b. of course, it's rkr, not lkr. and the pedals are 4 through 8, so in the example above, pedal 1 should be 4 and pedal 2 should be 5. I'll edit the first post to correct.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Stephen,
The example you gave with the G6, G7, Gm7, Gm6, E9, Am7, D9, C6, Cm6 chords doesn't seem to make a compelling argument for why you would prefer this over a regular C6 copedent. A standard 5 floor + 2 knee copedent (the extra knee would raise the A -> A#) would allow you to do everthing you just mentioned, at the same fret locations, with only 2 floor pedals and 1 knee lever, which is one of the advantages you claimed for your new copedent. So what's the point. I do notice that you have made parallel moves on all of your pulls, meaning you always pull the octave notes on the same lever. This is the antithesis of C6 which normally does not pull the octaves together. That's a key reason why on a standard C6 you can get a lot of dissonant chords, which of course is critical, as you know, for many jazz voicings (Maj7, 7b9, m7b9, 13th, 13b9, 7#9, 13#11, etc. etc.). This is not to say that you can't get some of it. But I think your inventory of dissonant voicings will be small. But there is undoubtedly an upside to it. Any unique copedent is bound to offer things that another copedent can't do. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Of course, without playing one, it's near impossible to judge it's capabilities. But as I said earlier, the example you gave does not seem to make the case for it. Perhaps, you can provide an example that clearly illustrates an advantage that this copedent has over the standard C6. Thanks. .. Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 May 2002 at 08:52 AM.]

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

I can't seem to open a PDF file with my computer. Are there any other options for viewing your copendant?

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 7:32 am

jeff, you are right about moving the octaves in unison. For my playing I prefer fully voiced chords. I can still get a good range of altered minors and dominants, though. For me, the standard C6th just didn't seem to make sense. When I'm playing chords behind a soloist, I prefer to use relatively simple chords, when I solo I'm general using single notes or pairs at most, so I can get to the color tones easily.

anyway, it's my preference and nothing more than that.

James Winwood · From: New York, New York

Steve, that looks functional, I have some observations: Do you plan on playing with two feet? You may need to if you want to combine some of those pulls. Your knee levers also seem to function as pedals themselves or have changes that the standard c6th pedals have. I use my levers for upper structure voices, usually tensions. If you want to add altered tensions, as Jeff pointed out, you might have a hard time. Also, consider your bar movement. I work with voice leading a lot and that affects how I look at my tuning. I am not a fan of simply sliding the bar up and down the neck for chords based on two or three root strings, kinda like a guitar player slides around power chords. This takes lots of work but, IMO, is necessary if you want to play in this style of music.....you may want to check out your tuning with this in mind....

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 7:53 am

james, you're right, but I just could never visualize the standard C6 copedant. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough. And it's true that I do use the knee lever much as you describe. I only have two knee levers on my C6 neck, if I had four, I'd use the other two for color tones.

As for playing with two feet on the pedals, that's what I found myself doing with the standard C6th tuning, also I found myself shifting my feet around much more than I do now.

James Winwood · From: New York, New York

Stephen, I had a big problem with my tuning and it's limitations when I only had two knees. It works well, it just came up short for my taste. Two more knees would help you out a bunch, I think. You could install them. I, on the other hand, went all out and traded in my d-10 and my(to me) useless E9 neck and got myself an S-12 which I tune to ext. c6th. It has four knees. It has also solved my problems. But I study jazz scholastically so I really needed it. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Where is Cortland Manor, by the way?

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 8:48 am

james, i'm about an hour from you, across the Bear Mountain bridge. You're welcome to stop by if you'd like. I also considered going the U12 route, but I love the E9 neck as well. Two different worlds, for sure.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

There are lots of jazz chords that have different notes in each octave, like the 7b9, 7#9, maj9, 11, 13, etc. I don't see how you can play them when all of your changes work in octaves.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

James Winwood · From: New York, New York

Stephen, I don't have a car so that limits things on my part, but if you are ever in the New Paltz area, give me a ring, shoot me an email or something. I just hang around and play steel all day anyway. Bobby Lee is dead on. There it is simply put.

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 10:47 am

I don't think this copedant is so limited, but it does require a good understanding of chord substitution. In any case, what I say here are my preferences that reflect my experience and taste as a jazz musician and don't necessarily reflect anything else, right or wrong.

major 9, never use it for comping, might use it for chord solos, but in the rare occasion that I do need it, I'd substitute the m7 a third up, which is the same chord without the root.

Dominant 7b9, can get it with pedals 7&8 with RKL (leave out 4th and 8th string). This voicing omits the third, which is fine.

Dominant 7#9, can be had easily by playing the minor 7th of the same chord. Cm7 = C7#9 if you leave out the third, which is always ok on dominants. The raised 9 is the same as a flatted third.

I never user a dominant 11, but I commonly use a minor 11. 11ths just work out better with minor chords as a rule. For a minor 11, use the pedal 7. This gives you a Minor 11 omitting the fifth, which is ok for an extended minor.

Dominant 13: Dominant 13ths are troublesome because in order for them to sound right, you have to voice the b7 and the 13 (which are just 1/2 tone a part) with an octave in between them, otherwise the chord sounds like crap. I would probably substitute a minor 11 starting at the third (C13=Em11 without C root or 9th) which can be had with no pedals by eliminating strings 4 and 8. Unfortunately, this voicing puts the 13 down low, when it should be up high. If this were a chord I used a lot in comping, I might make a special accomodation for it.

Let me sum up by saying that altered and extended chords are more important in some types of jazz then in others. Lots of jazz players prefer simpler forms, especially for comping. I designed my copedant to allow me to deal more easily with 95% of the situations I encounter -- I'll finesse the other 5%.

(sorry about the edits, didn't proof read before posting)

[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 01 May 2002 at 11:49 AM.]

[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 01 May 2002 at 11:50 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I said:

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 11:09 am

uh, no. no, you are not chopped liver.

sorry if I didn't address your chords specifically. I was trying to make a point without covering all the chord forms.

James Winwood · From: New York, New York

Stephen, a dominant is not a dominant without the major third and flatted 7th. If you leave out the third it loses it's function. A C7#9 without the third is a Cminor7. What gives the chord it's function is that 3rd voiced against the #9. You do seem to understand your tuning and what it is possible of. The question is, can you get these chords in diffrent inversions, up and down the neck, with each note in the melody voice subsequently. I need to have it that way, but as I've heard before, each tuning has to be geared to the mind that plays it.
Jeff, forgive me for spacing it and not giving the credit, I saw you had it with that first post. I seemed to simply reitterate those points, as did Bobby Lee. Maybe if you didn't nail it so dead on right out of the gate as usual....( how do you insert a smilie here?)

James Winwood · From: New York, New York

I'd prefer boiled liver....

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I'm not a jazz player, so I'll defer to your greater understanding of the genre. I never really learned substitutions.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 11:30 am

James, damn, you're right. As usual, I got into the answer and made a big mistake. By the way, if your copedant does what you describe, I want it! Can you show me what you're using?

corned beef is my preference

[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 01 May 2002 at 12:33 PM.]

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 11:35 am

oops, forgot you're using a U12. Nevermind. I think you can get a lot more out of a U12 for jazz then you can from a 10 string setup, for sure.

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 11:52 am

bob, I forgot to respond to you. As james points out, my examples were flawed, and I hope I have time to repost some other examples. But, I guess the whole point of this thread is that I don't know of a copedant for C6 (certainly not the standard nashville copedant) that gives you proper voicing for all altered forms of all chords.

The thing I disliked about the standard C6 is that it made the typical stuff, the stuff that you do most of the time, hard or at least klunky (in my opinion). So, you end up relying heavily on diminished substitutions because it's about the only thing that's always handy.

What I think I achieved here is something that let's me sit down at a chart and get through it without spending a lot of time figuring out voicings. I believe that a lot of the complex voicings can be had, but if I've lost some, I'm more than happy if it means I can get through the meat-and-potato playing with ease.

I recall what Joe Pass once said when he was talking about complex voicings of jazz chords. He kind of shrugged and said, "I don't want to work that hard."

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I'm with Jay Jessup. I can't open the file. How 'bout someone posting it using the Tab UBB code?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 01 May 2002 at 02:17 PM.]

Guest · Posted 1 May 2002 1:37 pm

ok fellas, here's the copdedant that you can view in your browser.
http://www.skobrien.com/c6copedant.htm

I guess I broke some rules with this copedant, so be kind.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Stephen, I know little of the technical end of music. (I just play the thing.) For almost 40 years, I've had my own unique C6th copedant which has allowed me to get some unique stuff. It also has hurt me, though, in that I have a difficult time trying to play someone else's guitar, and they wouldn't even THINK of playing mine!

So, remember that being different and innovative is a two-edged sword...it cuts both ways.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Until you post an example of what you can uniquely do with your copedent (which you said you would try to do), I would still stand by the fact that the example you gave does not offer a clear advantage between copedents, but there are a number of things that are not available on your new one (as has been pointed out). I understand the dynamic that you are searching for, which is a convenient way to do accompaniment and comping with simpler types of chord voicings. And I think we all agree that if you find a copedent that has a snyergy with the way you musically think, then you'll get the most out of it. HOWEVER, many, many C6 players choose to look at the C6 neck as almost a replacement for a piano. That is, something with tremendous harmonic variety. Since you have been playing jazz guitar for so long, you have developed a style that is probably influenced to a big degree by normal jazz guitar dynamics, and this, as you stated, has a lot to do with how you developed your copedent. But I'll bet that if you were a jazz pianist, and used to the massive harmonic range of jazz piano, you would opt for the normal C6 copedent, and modify that to have as much harmonic range as possible. To me, jazz piano is the harmonic standard to which the C6 tuning aspires.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 May 2002 at 07:17 PM.]

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