How much would you charge (if anything) for recording?

Chris Tweed · From: Cardiff, Wales, UK

There has been a lot of discussion here about the diminishing pay available for playing steel in live bands or on the road. I have a different, but related, question.

I have been asked to contribute steel to a couple of tracks on a recording by an up and coming artist, who currently doesn't have a recording deal, i.e. no money. Do semi-pro steel players (with day jobs) normally ask to get paid for this kind of work? If so, what's the going rate? Is it an hourly rate or a charge per track?

I'm new to playing steel, so I'm very pleased to be asked and keen to do it, but I wondered what others, who can play really well, do in this sort of situation. Do you play for nothing?

Never having been a full-time musician (I hope I've always been professional Smile

), I've always wondered how the great steel players get paid for the session work they do, especially when they play for friends. Do they do some work for free?

Chris

Wally Moyers · From: Lubbock, Texas

Chris,

Here in Lubbock we pay $50.00 an hour or $50.00 per track whichever is the most. This way a better player is not penalized for being faster... I realize that this is below scale in the major markets but it is actually up from recent years. In my studio I pay a minimum of $100.00 if they set-up so I always try to have at least 3 tracks to make it worth the musicians time. We very rarely setup a whole band but usually lay down vocal and guitar or piano to a click and build it all from there. Most everything is a overdub....

You guys just beginning to play in the studio may want to offer to play for free to get the experience. What is free to you is not free to the artist because studio time is expensive. I have a small Pro Tools rig in my basement and will often do my steel, dobro and lap steel overdubs there just to avoid carrying my gear to the studio. Anyone trying to learn to play in the studio would be smart to invest in a small recording system for their home, it's a great way to learn...

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Wally has some good suggestions however, if I may, I differ with him just a bit.

Union Scale was established with a purpose in mind. I've not been in the Musicians' Union (AFofM) Loc.#99 for many a decade however, if all musicians would simply abide by that established scale, you'd all have a level playing field from which to start.

Often the singing artist "is short of funds" for his/her project and thus appeals to the band members "EGO" to attain his/her recording. All to often the eager musicians 'jump at the chance to become famous'.....and the artist is the WINNER! The musicians on the other hand, often have far more invested in their equipment than does the vocalist. JUST THINK ABOUT IT!

There are countless stories to be told of how steel guitarists have allowed themselves to be used and in the end, they were used and abuse too.

Rare is the artist that truly cares about his musician sidemen..........

It's sorta like encouraging pickers to go play with a local club or dance band "FOR FREE" to gain valuable experience.......and yet, it's likely putting a fellow working musician that's struggling to pay for his impressive and expensive new Mullen,
Fessenden or Raines pedal steel, out of work.

I've been there, done that and seen it all happen.

Wally Moyers · From: Lubbock, Texas

Ray,

These suggestions are not for the "Pro" player but for the beginner... I doubt if any real artist would allow a non-pro to play on their record.

We all have to start somewhere. I started playing in a garage band when I was 11 years old and played anywhere someone would let us play, I don't think I put any "pros" out of work... I have produced hundreds of records over the last 35 years, the first three I did for free. My attitude was I was getting to work in a real studio and didn't have to pay for it... It's called interning, I have almost always had a intern on staff at my studio, they usually make the best employees. I think there is a place for a steel player to intern also, usually in a home studio setting where they can take three hours to get a track if it takes it... If a beginner player is getting my studio gigs because they play for free, maybe I need to become a roofer or something... Pro players won't play for free unless its a close friend or for a charity cause, thats what makes them professionals...

Dickie Whitley · Posted 12 Feb 2012 10:12 am

I started to leave this topic in peace then thought better (or worse) for commenting. This pay scale thing may be something people have come to accept, but I've always thought it wrong, but I know why it happens. My opinion has always been that the musician is just as important as the singer, and it just saddens me that musicians have accepted what I consider to be a second class existance. A musician playing on a recording should share in the profits just as much as the singer. I'd really love to see how far some of the "great" singers would get singing acapella (spelling?) all the time.

Off my soapbox now.

Wally Moyers · From: Lubbock, Texas

Dickie,

In some ways I agree with you, but that will never happen. In reality it's no different that an employee wanting to share in the profits of his employer. The employer provides the opportunity and takes all the risk. If the business fails the employee gets another job but the employer spends the rest of his life paying off debt.. An artist puts his or her career on the line along with their money. As studio musicians we get paid and go home... There is always the opportunity for us to start a band a become the "Artist" like Desert Rose or Alabama but with opportunity and profit potential comes risk... The band Toto is a great example of a band made up of studio musicians that made it big, I would love to see more of this!

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Many of the musicians I know here in the NW happily play on each other's projects for the same "$50 per hour or $50 per song" rate that Wally has mentioned, it's not much and it hasn't changed for years, but it's a rate that allows an exchange of mutual respect amongst friends.

If, on the other hand, the call was to play for strangers on a recording that had hopes of serious distribution the rate would be somewhat higher, often $100 or more. In the mid-1980's a friend of mine played a bass part for another friend's project. For this service he received $200 and some folks thought that was a lot, but here we are 25 years later and that same bass line is still played over the PA at every basketball game on earth so one might say that he was working cheap....

Wally Moyers · From: Lubbock, Texas

Dave,

I'v got a jingle I played on 25 years ago that I got paid $25.00, I still hear it all the time. Thats not a great deal for me but at least I had a gig that day. It probably bought baby new shoes.... If you know what I mean..

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

It sounds to me like the OP should go with the $50 per track/hour on this project.That way it's clear that this is a work project,and not a favor to a friend.Once the session's over,you're done and they own your work,just as you own the filling you paid your dentist to put in...

Come to think of it,getting paid is often WAAAY too much like pulling teeth!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well, the first thing I noticed was..."I have been asked to contribute...", and that sort of alludes that the may be expecting a freebie. Rolling Eyes

It's a fine line you must walk. Charge too much, and you're likely to not get called. Charge too little, and they might take advantage of you. However, if it's your first session, I'd tell them you're new, so it will be a flat $50-$75. I can't see asking $50 per song, as you're unexperienced, and per-song pricing means they will use you on as few tracks as possible. At this point, you need the exerience and exposure as much as they need a player...probably more.

Of course, to feel them out, and simplify matters, you could just ask..."How much do you usually pay?"

One last thing - I'd remember to ask if you could have a copy of the finished CD. That will probably mean more to you in 20 years than whatever they're paying you. If it's allowed, discretely take a few pictures, some of the studio and setup, and some of the people involved. Capture the moment while you can, as time will always erase some details that may become important later on. Wink

Chris Gabriel · From: Oregon, USA

Good topic, good ideas.

When does a beginner become a pro? When does a player graduate from "exposure and experience" to "50$-100$/hr"?

I agree with Ray Montee, if we as professional musicians held to a standard, we'd all receive fair compensation for what we do.

If you can play well, and you know it, it's not fair to take a gig for free or less pay where other musicians are vying for fair compensation. (including recording sessions, but you'll have to do some more research)

On the other hand, playing at a pizza parlor, jam sessioin, pub,or coffee shop for exposure and experience (and fun!) is not gonna kill the musicians market either.

A fine line, requiring awareness and sensitivity to other players, and the general economy around your specific town. "a Rising tide lifts all ships".

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I can't believe a steel player or any musician would load gear into a studio and record for $50 a song. This is robbery. My minimum is $200 per session to bring the gear anywhere, and I get it. This is part of the problem when musicians go out and play for crap money. This way no one will ever pay more. Ridiculous. I'd give up sessions if I had to play for that kind of money. It saddens me to think that this rate could be the norm anywhere, let alone everywhere. Worse still is that musicians appreciate it and feel lucky to have it! Are times that desperate?? By the time you've gassed up and put on new strings, the fee is eaten up. Musicians are their own worst enemy.

Regarding being "new," I can understand being reluctant to charge a high fee. But if you've got good chops and can deliver, $100 a song should be the bare minimum.
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Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Larry Robbins · From: Fort Edward, New York

In my neck of the woods its about the same...roughly $50.00 per track, sometimes a little more...and always more if you double on another instrument..
just starting out around this area..and I bet a lot of others..play for a little or nothing as long as you get album credits..I have done that with a lot of close friends projects...how about the rest of you?....good topic Smile

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Chris Tweed · From: Cardiff, Wales, UK

Some very interesting perspectives offered here. Thanks guys.

I guess I'm in that awkward no-man's land between absolute beginner and plausible session player. Truth is, I imagine there are very few steel players in the UK who are totally dependent on playing steel to make a living, apart from BJ Cole and I don't think he is quite in my (low) league Laughing

If I do a session or a gig for a low rate to get some exposure it's probably not going to harm anybody. At least, not now.

I'm fully aware of the problem of people in the same line of work destroying the profession by undercutting on fees (from my day job), but it is hard to persuade everyone to hold the line (sorry, a blatant Toto reference) if the only other option is not to work/play. Morally, it seems to depend on whether it will undermine someone's ability to put food on the table rather than indulge a passion and hobby.

From other recent topics on the SGF, it seems few steel players today are able to make a living solely through music, which raises the interesting, and potentially endless debate, about what makes someone a 'professional' musician. After all, didn't Sneaky Pete return to his "day job" in later life. It seems unlikely he couldn't make a living from steel playing, so I don't know why he did that.

Chris

Wally Moyers · From: Lubbock, Texas

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I would never do a professional studio recording for free. I'd maybe consider it if it was someone I knew all my life and just couldn't catch a break, perhaps one demo song, but otherwise no.

Your time, talent and hard work spent learning to play, and investment in all that gear is worth something. Be proud of it. If you start giving it away, you'll always be expected to.

Everyone thinks it's OK to play for free just for the fun of it. That's one of the reasons you can't make a decent wage these days.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Wally, in my part of Eastern Canada there is no problem making $100 a song in the studio or $200 a night in the clubs, because musicians demand it. The ones undercutting do not last long because they're not professionals, and the bars know better than to hire sub-par entertainment just because it's cheaper. If the professionals start giving away their talent to compete with amateurs, the bottom falls out of it quickly. I suppose if there's no union to control things, musicians of all calibers can do whatever they wish. But in my city the pro gigs and pro sessions have remained relatively lucrative due to the demand for quality.

I would suggest that novice musicians just getting their chops down on an instrument spend some time in the basement woodshedding alone or with others until they're good enough to cut it in the studio or on stage. Doing gigs and sessions for free will only get you more free work and at the same time raise the ire of those actually trying to make a living. Nothing says you can't piece together a band and play for fun; but if you're entering the gig or session market, you'd be better off entering it as a pro-level musician. You don't get many chances to prove yourself.
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Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Wally Moyers · From: Lubbock, Texas

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Well, I look at it this way, if any of you guys can get 100-200 per song, more power to you. I think about things. Say we have have a local singer who wants to do a CD to sell at shows and PAs (no feed regional or national distribution). Okay, then 5-10 musicians on a song is really not out of the ordinary, right? That said, at the above mentioned fees, the fee for musicians would range from $500-$2000 per track to make a CD. And, if said CD has 10 songs, the cost for musicians alone would run from $5000-$20,000 per CD. Now, figure in a few thou more for studio and mixdown, duplicating and master fees, and all of a sudden, we've easily spent $10,000-$30,000 for a "local artist" CD!

Now, with all that said, I'm just curious...I know we've got a ton of steelers here who have made their own CDs. How many of you steelers who have had a CD made to sell have paid $10,000-$30,000 to make that CD? Neutral

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Any artist with promise usually has access to funding of some sort. Half the problem is that everybody wants to make an album these days. They're called vanity records. The fact that it can be done so cheaply has made waste of a music business that used to have some semblance of control. If you are trying to make a record and have no money, that alone should tell you something. 90% of what is released in these low-budget situations is complete junk. Every so often there's a gem, but more often than not an artist with little promise can't secure funding.

That said, if you want to make a record, go for it. But just because you have no money, don't expect everyone to work for free as well. Any album should have at least $5,000 to work with. Just like low-paying gigs pollute a scene, low-buget basement recordings pollute the recording business. Many independent artists celebrate the death of record companies, but I think it's a tragedy that ANYONE can make a record these days. It creates a wasteland where people have to sift through so much crap to find the gems.
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Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Wally Moyers · From: Lubbock, Texas

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Wally I wasn't referring to your studio in particular, but I'm glad to hear you're making some good budget recordings. It means you're making a living which is great. That's all any of us want.
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Web: www.chrisledrew.com

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