Emmons P/P why no more?

Larry Robertson · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

I was wondering, if the Emmons P/P guitars were (& still are) so superior in sound (tone), why did Emmons quit making them? I suppose economics had something to do with it, and we see a few still built from the remaining few parts left, and Promat is making a P/P, but if the P/P is so superior why is no-one making them? Especially Emmons? I've played one and it was real sweet sounding, but did not seems to be worth the price being asked for it relative to other alternatives. What do you guys think? Larry Robertson
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MSA D-10, Carter U12, Fessy SDU-12,Emmons P/P D-10, Emmons P/P U-12,Emmons S-10 ShoBud SuperPro, Lap steel, keyboards, 6-string Guitars.. too many

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I believe it was economics and ease of assembly.
I picked up my first steel from Lashley one Saturday in 80, and saw Ron show Mike Auldridge the prototype of the LeGrande and he said he couldn't wait to be done with the Push-pull.
I don't recall, but I thought there was no significant time of overlap
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

http://www.emmonsguitar.net/pushpull.htm

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

Because the All Pull had more potential, was easier to set up & adjust than the PP ?
Do PPs originally, have splits, half stops, & more than 4 or 5 levers ?
the All Pull was smoother & more comfortable to play ?
Granted the PP is a tone machine ......but what a beast
Bruce Zumsteg came up w: a good alternative : Hybrid Changer

Mat Davallet · From: France (VendÃ©e)

I've refurbished all pull steel guitars this last years, explore the possibilities of this type of changer as far as possible (optimisation, set up..). I've just finished a Push Pull guitar last week (thanks to Tommy Cass and J.Crowbear for helping) and see for the first time how this guitar sounds fantastic, but have many restriction on their setup possibilities. First is the changer himself when you have to raise and lower the same string. Consider that the raise finger become the lower finger and you have to let the travel for a lower travel on your raise on the same string. Second, there's only one possibilities on your belcrank to get sweetness. To me Push Pull are relatively stable and stay in tune and are precises. It's an old guitar from another century, hard to play (if you came from all pull system) , for those who love having a great tone and a weel-build guitar.
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Mullen G2 SD10/Schild SD10/Nash400/lemay mod/Emminence neo speaker/Brad Sarno "tonic preamp"/Strymon bluesky/Telonics volume/Tonealigner pickup/ http://www.pedalsteel.fr

Mat Davallet · From: France (VendÃ©e)

I've refurbished all pull steel guitars this last years, explore the possibilities of this type of changer as far as possible (optimisation, set up..). I've just finished a Push Pull guitar last week (thanks to Tommy Cass for help) and see for the first time how this guitar sounds fantastic, but have many restriction on their setup possibilities. First is the changer himself when you have to raise and lower the same string. Consider that the raise finger become the lower finger and you have to let the travel for a lower travel on your raise on the same string. Second, there's only one possibilities on your belcrank to get sweetness. To me Push Pull are relatively stable and stay in tune and are precises. It's an old guitar from another century, hard to play (if you came from all pull system) , for those who love having a great tone and a weel-build guitar.
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10/Schild SD10/Nash400/lemay mod/Emminence neo speaker/Brad Sarno "tonic preamp"/Strymon bluesky/Telonics volume/Tonealigner pickup/ http://www.pedalsteel.fr

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

There have been long forum threads about this in the past. Probably still in the forum archives.

Bottom line, not enough interest in purchasing a new PP to start producing it again. There are a few that would buy a new PP if it were available but not nearly enough. I think Emmmons has built a couple in the last few years from remaining parts but that's it.

I had a new 71 D-10 PP (Black Laughing

) but I don't miss it and tweaking needed to keep it in top shape. When I worked at Little Roy Wiggin's Nashville Music store (across the street from Sho-Bud)I worked on Emmons as Roy's store was the Nashville dealer for Emmons.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I think looking at a p/p and comparing it to a current model all pull is comparable to looking at cars.
Some drivers like the new model cars with all the bells and whistles and others like to drive the old classics that have stood the test of time. Very Happy

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

True. Ask Herb Steiner how much time he spends under the hood of his Z, too.
I enjoy it but sometimes wish I didn't have to
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

the PP changer was based on the Sho-Bud permanent pull release changer - which was basically an obsolete design by 1964 when the PP came out. these guitars were never designed to be 8x4(+) designs, although talented people figured out how to do it. when you start loading them up with too much - they get temperamental.

have you ever seen the undercarriage of a loaded PP? I use to spend more time marveling at the underside of my PP than playing it - can you imagine the manufacturing time / cost / PITA to build them.
I would like to know the part count of a PP vs all pull given equal copedants.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

nice neat machines actually.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I've often wondered how one would tune an intermediate lower on one, if one were desirous of one...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lynn Stafford · From: Ridgefield, WA USA

[quote="chris ivey"]nice neat machines actually.

I really enjoy playing and working on these guitars. It has really been especially rewarding to give some of the old, beat up ones a brand new future!

I have a '65 red belly bolt-on with 8x9 and a couple of years ago I sold the one shown below that had 9x7 to a good customer (now a good friend).

Yes, I have to admit that it takes lots of patience to work on these guitars but I'm here to say the effors are worth it!
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Best regards,
Lynn Stafford

STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)

Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)

ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

yours is cleaner than mine. i dig them...i wouldn't want to work on them for a living, but i'll do it for myself!
my other one needs some fine tuning on some of the timing but i've been lazy lately.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

I agree w/ Lynn & Chris.

Playing a P/P is like driving an old Triumph TR-3. Not a modern feel, but a great feeling which can' be experienced by driving any modern cars.

They're are a lot of beneficial design factors that are often ignored when compared to all-pull guitars.

Sure, there isn't end-plate tunable double raise/lower on a push-pull, but the number of raises or lowers on any given string are only limited by the number of pedals and levers. Also, P/P bellcrank is designed such that it pulls raise and lower rods uphill at the beginning, and downhill at the end of its excursion. That provides the smoothest, easiest force required, at the beginning and end of pedal travel. The slightly stiffer effort in mid-travel is offset by the pedal's momentum.

They are "neat" machines (this is the 79 I rebuilt a few years ago). It sounds and plays great.

Curt Langston · Posted 10 Feb 2012 2:40 pm

They sound really good, but HIGH maintenance compared to todays guitars.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Curt,
You're wrong, my wife is high maintenance not my Emmons p/p! Whoa!

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Tunable splits. Everyone wanted them in the 80s. Impossible with a push-pull.
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Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Tony said

Lynn Stafford · From: Ridgefield, WA USA

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I'll tell you why there are no more Push Pulls being made.
Push Pulls were so good that "They" made Emmons stop production..... and I'm sure that you know who I'm talking about. Winking

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

once set right no well made steel requires much maintenance. especially a push pull. they aren't some delicate little flower or a jaguar.
i think on any decent steel i've owned i may have spent a few days out of a year tinkering mostly unnecessarily.
consider that most of these steels work regularly for 30 yrs or more.
split tuning is the main improvement seen with newer all pull guitars. i like the benefit but can play without it. consider the music that has been played on p/p's and the fact that many better than i'll ever be still insist on them.
then again i'd just as soon everyone play something else rather than screw up a nice p/p. leave them for the lovers. Embarassed

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

If Lynn Stafford worked on it, you could eat off it. I agree. The key point is that they have to be set up correctly the first time by a qualified P/P ,mechanic. There are alot of guitars out there out of proper mintenance and regulation. I love Emmons P/P's. A classic sound.

Jim Hussey · From: Reno, Nevada - USA

I came to p/p guitars fairly late in the game. But, once I got one, I was hooked. The sound more than makes up for the absence of a tunable split. I now have three p/p guitars, all rebuilt by Lynn Stafford, so all three are reliable, play smooth and easy, stay in tune, and do not break strings.

As to why they are no longer made, I have to agree it would be the cost of parts and assembly. While a well sorted p/p is quite reliable and easy to play, they are complex and I have to imagine expensive to manufacture. So once the all pull changer was perfected, it's no surprise that the p/p system was abandoned. Expensive then, more expensive now, I doubt it will return. All the more reason to restore, preserve, cherish, and play the p/p guitars that remain.

At the risk of redundancy, Lynn Stafford is the man when it comes to p/p guitars. He's a great guy and a great musician too. So if anyone out there is p/p curious, reach out to Lynn. You will not be disappointed.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

It's more than the tunable splits: today's players want octave pairs to move together, they want to speed up and slow down pulls to create half-stops.
Push-pull can't give you that, either.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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