| Author |
Topic: B and C pedal vs. A and B pedal stiffness |
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 27 Dec 2011 1:34 pm |
|
This question has probably come up plenty. What is it about the makeup of the strings, pedal(s) etc. that makes the B and C pedal naturally stiffer to press than the A and B? Or is it just the C pedal that does it? Or is it just me? I've compenstated for it for years without much thought, but started wondering about it again.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
|
|
 |
Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 27 Dec 2011 1:55 pm
|
|
Just a guess (until wiser voices chime in), but the C pedal has two whole step raises to make and, unlike pedal A (5+10), they are both on plain strings (4+5), which require a little more travel. Thus, if you set the travel distance roughly the same on the two pedals, the C pedal would need to be be a little stiffer.
Okay, now someone who really knows the answer, please speak up! 
Dan |
|
|
|
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 27 Dec 2011 2:32 pm
|
|
On C pedal the raise is 1.5 steps,(B to C# and E to F#) the same distances as the A pedal. The only difference would be the wound string vs the plain and maybe because the E to F# is a higer pitch and the string is possibly pulled/tuned to a tighter torque? Correction: B to C# and E to F# are a whole step in tone.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord,
Last edited by Fred Glave on 31 Dec 2011 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 27 Dec 2011 3:17 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| On C pedal the raise is 1.5 steps,(B to C# and E to F#) |
INCORRECT
It's only 1 step (2 frets). 1 fret is a half step.
I agree with the explanation that Dan gave. It's been like that on almost every guitar I have owned.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
|
Posted 27 Dec 2011 4:31 pm
|
|
| B to C# is one tone, not 1.5. |
|
|
|
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 27 Dec 2011 4:44 pm
|
|
My error, I knew it wasn't two whole steps. So it's the plain string vs. the wound string that makes it stiffer. Ah ha.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
|
|
|
Stuart Legg
|
Posted 29 Dec 2011 10:48 pm
|
|
It's a thing called "mechanical advantage". Fulcrum and point of effort.
Pedals (levers of the second order) bell cranks (livers of the first order) strings (pulley).
Most PSG have enough adjustment to match ease of pedal feel and the difference in travel distance can
be compensated for by adjusting the length of travel prior to the point of engagement. This is a little difficult and you have to keep going round and round to get exactly what you want. Trial and error type of adjusting is all a PSG allows. Perfect is not possible, close is the best you can hope for and on some PSGs forget about it.
Last edited by Stuart Legg on 29 Dec 2011 11:13 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 29 Dec 2011 10:55 pm
|
|
Stuart, since most folks set their A pedal for max throw, min effort, and the C pedal will require more effort because it moves two bare strings, the only way to balance them is to stiffen the A pedal. Which most of us don't wanna do.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Stuart Legg
|
Posted 29 Dec 2011 11:09 pm
|
|
Since the A and C are never played together I have already stiffened the B pedal to match the A pedal. I simply stiffen the B slightly more to get close to the C pedal splitting the difference between A and C.
It seems to be an advantage to have the B pedal slightly stiffer than the A pedal to help out with the problem of inadvertantly pushing slightly down on the B pedal bringing it slightly sharp when you rock over to the A pedal only. Rocking over from the A to the B pedal never seems to be a problem. |
|
|
|
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 31 Dec 2011 9:17 am
|
|
Stuart, it would seem that stiffening up the B pedal would make the B+C combo even more stiff....not the desired effect. I may be wrong, but I don't believe my guitar or most others have been engineered to maximize leverage in the C pedal components to compensate for the difference in stiffness between the pedals. It would be ideal to have all pedals equally soft and easy to depress.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord,
Last edited by Fred Glave on 31 Dec 2011 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Ransom Beers
|
Posted 31 Dec 2011 9:29 am
|
|
| Would Viagra help? |
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 31 Dec 2011 9:37 am
|
|
One way to make the pedals be equally soft to press, and have the same amount of travel, is to add helper springs to the raises.
That's easy enough on all-pull steels, but I notice that Fred is playing a Stage One, which is a pull-release steel, and not so easy to apply helper springs if the finger lowers as well as raises, as indeed the 4th does.
I overcame this limitation on my Emmons push-pull (which is not much different to a pull-release) by attaching the raise helper spring to the lowering rod |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 31 Dec 2011 9:43 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Would Viagra help? |
Wouldn't that make them stiffer?
Reminds me of when I used to use a hard stool to sit on (prior to my drum stool and pak-a-seat). I would complain and my friend would tell to put Dulcolax on it (Dulcolax is a stool softener - get, huh, huh?). OK I'll go back to my room (cell) now.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 31 Dec 2011 10:17 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Would Viagra help? |
yes, but if you experience the strings' inability to return to pitch for more than four hours..... oh, never mind.
Dan |
|
|
|
John Peay
From:
Cumming, Georgia USA
|
Posted 2 Jan 2012 6:47 pm
|
|
| richard burton wrote: |
| One way to make the pedals be equally soft to press, and have the same amount of travel, is to add helper springs to the raises. |
My guitar has return springs on the A&B pedals, but not the C. It works out that this makes them all fairly close in action, at least on my Derby. |
|
|
|
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 3 Jan 2012 9:12 am
|
|
Making them all equal is good, but not what I'd like to get necessarily. Ideally, I'd like them all to be equal, but nice and easy to press. There must be some way to increase leverage in the mechanics of the C pedal to increase ease. It may not even be an issue for most players, and it's certainly not the end of the world if it never happened, but what the heck?
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 3 Jan 2012 6:15 pm
|
|
IIRC, the Stage One is a bit more limited
in its flexibility.
The answer would mean reducing the leverage of the C pedal, not increasing it. Many of us do it, though
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 3 Jan 2012 7:19 pm
|
|
Forgive me Lane, but what does IIRC mean? Maybe it's just my logic, but I would think that if one was to increase leverage in the pedal or mechanics under the guitar it would make the pedal easier to push, much the same way that when you go down into a lower gear on a bicycle the increased leverage makes it easier to pedal the bike up a hill. And I have to say that all 3 of the Stage One pedals are very smooth and easy to press compared to the other steels I've owned. It's just that even so that is true, there is still that difference between the C and the others.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 4 Jan 2012 1:45 am
|
|
First one: IIRC =If I Recall Correctly
As to the other, I just think of increasing leverage to move the rod farther up the crank. That's just a different viewpoint.
The C pedal just has a harder job than either A or B, in terms of how much additional tension it has to impart. You could slow it down/make the pull longer but easier, but I think that would feel odd underfoot, as the C pedal would START higher than the B, but END lower.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
|
Posted 4 Jan 2012 6:10 am
|
|
I would definately sacrifice more stiffness to get the same travel of the B and C pedals. IMO it is awkward having the C pedal stop higer than the B, I like them at the same point, it maked it easier to get back to the A and B pedals. As far as stiffness, well I find that it doesnt bother me as I have a heavy foot anyway  |
|
|
|
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 4 Jan 2012 10:10 am
|
|
I understand that steel guitars are limited to the hardware they come with, and we do the best with what we have. I'm just wondering if there is an engineer out there that could design a bellcrank and cross shaft that would accomplish what we're talking about without increasing the travel and throw of the C pedal. I suppose it may increase the cost of the guitar to the point where it would be a tough sell. I don't know.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
|
|
|
Ransom Beers
|
Posted 4 Jan 2012 11:48 am
|
|
OK,here's what I did to make the pedal feel the same on AB&C,I lowered my pull rods( C ) to the lowest point on the puller but couldn't tune without pulling the open tuning out,so my brain snapped "get more length on the pull so I took the pedal stop off made a shim about 1/16 in. thick reattached the stop & walla,then I was able to tune open as well as with the C pedal engaged & the feel was as easy on B&C as it was on A&B so now I'm a cappy hamper.Thank you velly much.
The End!!
PS: My pedal stops have an adjusting screw.This BSG is one fine guitar. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 4 Jan 2012 1:15 pm
|
|
Fred, about the only way to do that would involve replacing the mechanical linkage with sensors and servos (or stepper motors, I guess); because you want more work done with similar inputs, which in a lever-based world doesn't happen.
Such a rig would be harder to pay for than it would be to design.
It'd have the advantage of unlimited tuning compensators, since you could program in one set of rules involving pedal A getting pressed by itself (true that G# string) another with both A and B, a 'nother for A,B and D.
And the only feedback your feet and thighs would feel would come from springs
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
|
Posted 4 Jan 2012 3:07 pm
|
|
I guess this is just a simple physics problem, but I was never good at that. It's all about torque. Like a car jack lever, or a wrench. The part of the pedal where the foot applies force, and other end is where the work is done. The foot would have to travel too great of a distance to accomplish the work on the other end at the desired use of energy. So I give up on this one. The best explanation is that there are two plain strings that have to be pulled. Thanks for the brain workout everyone.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
|
|
|
