On Getting Better..,

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

I've just read a great book, "Talent Is Over-rated", presenting very cogent arguments that most of what we perceive as "talent" in any field, but particularly music, is actually the result of deliberate (focused) practice. I'd appreciate hearing from everyone at all levels of ability and performance about their concerns and application of focus in their desire to become a better musician.

Beginners, for instance, often have burning desire, but aren't sure just what to study and how, and are (correctly) referred to mentoring from the more experienced to help guide them and eliminate bad habits. This assumes that the mentor knows what bad habits are, and how to teach...
The more experienced have probably had the experience of people coming up at gigs or sessions and saying something like: "You're so talented... I love steel but I could never do that." But know that anything we display as ability is the function of seat time and stage experience.
After 30 years of playing and teaching, I'm well aware of where my limitations are and pretty much what I need to do to improve, I'm only limited by time invested and level of commitment.

Your experiences, answers, questions? Thanks...

richard burton · From: Britain

Mark,
You say that you are only limited by time invested and level of commitment, unfortunately the absolute limiting factor is your level of inate talent.

Every player has a built-in ceiling to their ability, and no amount of practice will let you break through that ceiling.

Every player's ceiling has to be reached through practice, and every player's ceiling is different, but once that ceiling has been reached, it can't be breached, no matter how many hours/years are spent woodshedding Oh Well

Mark Eaton · Posted 2 Dec 2011 12:20 pm

I should find that book, sounds interesting.

Even though there might be an inate amount of talent for everyone, don't you think that provided someone is of fairly "normal" intellect, that hours put in with fairly productive and organized practice can make just about anyone a strong musician?

If one is aspiring to be a Paul Franklin, well maybe that just isn't possible - there's the "inate" factor.

About eight years ago after a Jerry Douglas Band concert, a fellow dobro playing buddy said, "this makes me want to go home and cut my hands off at the wrist."

I asked him why? Saying something like that reminded me of going to a San Francisco Giants game in those years, and going home disappointed that you'll never be able to hit a baseball out of the park like Barry Bonds. It's great to aim high, but let's be realistic.

I could practice dobro six hours a day for the next ten years and still not be in the same "league" as Jerry, but I'm reasonably sure that I would still be an outstanding picker, even though there is a "ceiling" in terms of my natural ability.
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Mark

Jerome Hawkes · From: Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA

great thread
i will have to side with richard on this - there IS a ceiling to ones talents that no amount of study / focus will overcome. i use to read a lot of OLD classical music pedagogy methods from violinist like Leopold Auer, and other european teachers whose names i cant recall or spell - but they were unanimous in that they could usually tell at a very early age (8-10) the ability of the student and whether they were suited to further study or it was a waste of money. now this was back in the day when the only children sent to music conservatory were the well to do (the rest went to work in factories). but it was often noted that the orchestras of europe at the time were filled with mediocre musicians, despite decades of playing and study with the masters.

You can also see this in players like Buddy Emmons - who was composing stuff like Four Wheel Drive and playing his @$$ off at the age of 17 (keep in mind he states he didnt start playing until he was 11 - and never really says he spent his early years in constant study or practice as he wanted to be a boxer)

the #1 factor in musical success, from my own observations (and i have been observant in that it always fascinated me) is.....how well developed your musical ear is and how "naturally" rhythmic you are (ok that was 2). i dont care how much you study, if you have a "tin ear" and a poor rhythmic sense you cant overcome these obstacles - that IS music and there ARE people that lack one, or BOTH. of course that DOES NOT mean you cant PLAY & ENJOY music (as i count many in this group who dont give a crap, they love to play and i'm all for that) - but 'dems the hard cold facts.

BUT - its like the great John Hartford said once - "when you reach your limitations, then you begin to develop your own style - it is FORCED on you by your limitations and cant be MANUFACTURED" - what he meant was that NO amount of study or focus can make YOU = Buddy Emmons, its only the ceiling that you hit which becomes your own style.
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Ransom Beers · Posted 2 Dec 2011 1:33 pm

I agree about there being a ceiling but some (like Franklin,Green,White,Emmons,etc) have very high ceilings.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Good post, Mark.

I'm not sure where the truth lies. I've known Albert Lee for almost fifty years and I think that he'd reached the limits of his amazing dexterity all those years ago. Since then, of course, he's developed greater sense of musicality but I don't hear much gain in his technique.

So: do we reach an equivalent of a boat's 'hull speed' very early (I've heard this term applied to vessels that, regardless of how much power is made available, are limited by their design)?

Me? I think I have a very good 'ear' and a reasonably developed sense of rhythm - certainly enough to support me in what I aspire to do - yet steel guitar has all but defeated me while having a very solid technique on six-string. In my case I think I blundered on with PSG without any expert advice (I took it up in the '70s fifteen years after I'd started playing guitar); this approach hadn't harmed my progress on regular guitar but has, I feel, destroyed any chance of making any real strides on steel.

Don't misunderstand me - I continue to make my living playing principally steel guitar so I'm managing to pull the wool over some people's eyes(!), but I'm all too aware of where I fall short.

To me the ultimate goal is to be able to play anything you can hear in your head - I'm far closer to that level on six-string than I am on steel. PSG is a different animal!

I'm sorry if I've wandered from the thread's original thrust but those are the thoughts it inspired in me.
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Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

If, as Richard suggests, everyone has a "ceiling", I doubt that many people can honestly claim that they have reached theirs. I don't doubt the role of natural talent - some people have, as Ransom put it, very high ceilings. Most of my limitations as a musician don't come from my ceiling - they come from the fact that I've not spent the time and effort necessary to overcome them. (for lots of reasons, some of them good and some not so good).

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I agree with RR about this to a large extent (our RR, not the "real" RR) Razz

->

Tom Stolaski · From: Huntsville, AL, USA

Every time I go up north to visit my brother, we have the same discussion about being born with talent. He tells me that I am a good musician because I was given this gift. I remind him that I started reading music at nine years old playing the accordion, and have put in many hours of study on the steel guitar and other misc instruments over the years. I think it is easier for some people to learn music, but it is the musicians who have put in the endless hours of work into it that become the Emmons and Franklins that we all admire so much.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Joachim Kettner · From: Germany

Mark, sorry to be slightly off topic, but after reading your initial post I recalled when I was in my teens and starting on guitar while listnig to records and looking at songbooks with their chord diagramms. I was putting pieces together and got lucky to play what I wanted about 5% and failing about 95%. Two years later a classmate did almost the same, but he was better than me after only six months. He could figure out licks from records while I stood on my ears. I guess this shows that he had more talent than me. Since I don't see him anymore I'm left wondering why that was.
First of all I think that although we were at the same age he was more mature than me, which meant that he only bought one record instead of me buying ten and concentrating more on it. We were both were big fans of the Byrds and he would amaze me by, showing me a Clarence White solo he figured out, which I could never play.
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Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

To me, some of the greatest music was written generations ago. I can still find inspiration in learning a snippet of Bach today that may turn out to be a whole new wing in my musical house by the new year. Maybe one's personal ceiling cant be raised, but the floor plan is constantly shifting and expanding. If you learned something today that you didnt know the day before, your musical house may have an addition in the works. My musical ceiling was probably reached at around 19, when I practiced round the clock, but knowledge and ability do grow outward, if not upward. Same ceiling of ability now as at 19, but its a much bigger place. The windows are wide open and the doors are too. Step outside where there are no ceilings and find musical inspiration. Bring back something that ties the whole room together. You might even raise the roof! Laughing

Clete

Ransom Beers · Posted 3 Dec 2011 2:37 am

I'm trying to add more tiles to my ceiling without making the room bigger,maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.I never wanted to sound like Buddy,Paul,Tommy,etc. but I would like to be able to play with the same abandonment they do............ah yes,back to the drawing board!!!

Allen Peterson · From: Katy, Texas

I don't know about this ceiling business. The human mind appears to be limitless as far as capacity to learn is concerned. Ceilings might be self-imposed, although certain talents appear to be determined by the combination of mind and physical abilities. Playing a musical instrument might be one of those where no amount of brain capacity can compensate for lack of physical ability--hand-to-eye coordination, etc.

Allen Peterson
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Barry Blackwood · Posted 3 Dec 2011 6:58 am

Sam White R.I.P. · From: Coventry, RI 02816

I may be off on this thread a bit but here goes.I have had a hard time trying to play the Pedal Steel Guitar.OK I was over to Ray Walker's home the other day and he was teaching a Steel Player how to use his knee levers. This mans name is Bob I don't remember his last name.He plays a great C6 on lap Steel and also on the pedal steel. He plays E-9th and he does not use his knee levers. Well Ray was teaching him how and went to use them in different songs.Ray told him that by not using those knee levers that he was losing a lot of the pretty sound in the Steel Guitar. I sat there and watched and listened and that is true. Sorry if I'm out of place here but maybe this is another problem why we have a hard time trying to play the Steel Guitar.I have started using them and I'm figuring out where to use them and where not to and it is starting to sound like I'm playing the Steel Guitar.
Sam White
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Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Mark, over the years I've always been more of a lead guitarist than a pedal steel player and always had a steel and played a little, just enough to do a couple of tunes a set if needed. While in SoCal I bought a ShoBud S-12 in '77 and set it up at home and practiced a bunch and got a fair amount of competancy on it. In Dec. of '78 I got my first full time 6 night a week steel job and played a minimum of thirty hours a week for the next seven years.

During that time I got pretty fair and comfortable on steel so that I could pretty much play most of what I wanted to do.... I left SoCal in Oct. of '85 and said goodbye to being a full time musician. I've played mostly guitar gigs since living here but do a fair amount of steel playing too. I've found that I've lost so much of my steel abilities, mostly from not using them. One band I was in, I played lead guitar for 4 years and never even took my steel out of the case and it's hurt. I can play tapes of old bands in SoCal and some things I hear myself playing, I can't even figure out how I played them.

I think that steel guitar needs to be constantly worked on to keep your chops up to par but I just don't have a practice ethic anymore and I really wish I did. The only playing I do is at a gig and the rest of the time my rig stays in the equipment van..........JH in Va.
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Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

The only things that can lower your own personal ceiling are injury, illness, old age and death. We can all be careful about the first two, but the last two are inevitable. Rolling Eyes

Different instruments require different amounts of physical energy to play. From harmonica to drums, you have to have some energy to make sound. The ceiling is physical in the sense that, as in sports, you have a peak performance period in a career. Fortunately, playing music isnt a sport really, and many continue to expand their playing capacity well into their golden years if they are healthy. Very Happy

Clete

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Being an amazing technical player means nada if the musical choices we make do not move the listeners. On the other hand, making great choices means nada if one cannot in fact execute them musically.

Practice is hard work, some of us enjoy this work more than others and some of us have the ears and nerves and muscular systems that just flat out work better than others for this particular set of complex tasks. Whether this is "talent" or not, we all must work with what we have and it is what we make of what we have that determines whether our playing is enjoyable or tedious, or horrid on occasion, to the ears of others.

I admire those who can really "burn it up" but have personally never been able to pick all that fast no matter how hard I work at it - Hal Rugg's recording of "Rocky Top" with the Osborne Bros. still leaves me in the dust after near forty years of effort on that one song - but the diverse musical experiences in my life have informed my choices sufficiently that what I CAN play seems to please others more often than not. Lucky me Winking

they keep calling me back for more...

Regardless of "talent" level, everybody who plays this instrument for very long discovers that a sudden attack of nerves or lack of focus can undo the best preparation, and sometimes wonderful things happen with no preparation at all, but it is the practice time that instills in our motor memory the moves that we must be able to execute without conscious thought in order to perform with consistency and confidence under a wide range of circumstances and pressures. When we can persevere under the most difficult conditions and "get 'er done" with style and grace it will always bring that inner smile that we all ultimately seek.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Compounding the whole mess is the well-known, perhaps even universal fact that your own "real-time" assessment of how well you're playing usually has absolutely nothing to do with how well other people think you're playing or how well the gig goes. When you get that feeling that you can't find the center of the beat all night, every little squeak and (ahem) "passing tone" seem magnified, to others it may sound like your best playing because you are concentrating well. How many pretty girls were in the audience at your last gig?

"I dunno - I'm the steel player..."

And there's another universal phenomenon I can surely see - Watch the Buddy videos, the Easleys, the Chalkers - as a dedicated C6th player, when a solo finally starts to uncurl the right way, everybody kicks the goddam pedals aside and chases the boog around the block with the bar alone. What if they invented an instrument that was so complicated only three players in each generation are allowed to smile when they play it.... Shocked

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I think, personally, that, "getting better" is an acquired feat. The more you play, the better you'll get. Back when I was playing all the time, my progress kept getting better and better. Now, that I don't play as frequently my prowess has diminished considerably. I still know all the stuff, but, muscle memory has lapsed and putting it to the strings has gotten slower.
Then there's the subject of "what" you want to play. Given enough time with the steel and just about most of us can rip off quite a few notes like a machine gun, but, is that a goal? Playing slowly with a lot of feeling is an acquired talent, also. Smoothly playing from one phrase to another requires tact and talent, something that must be learned. A vast knowlege of chords and where to use them is another great plus, in my book ( I haven't finished that book yet )
You see.... The more you play, the better you'll get and playing with other people creates more knowledge than banging around on it by yourself. Tabs and rhythmn tracks are great, but, they won't give you the spontaneity you get from live playing and feeding off one another.
We all wish, that, we had the prowess of an Emmons, Green, Jernigan, Anderson, Hicks and all the rest of our heroes, but, think about how many hours of live playing they had. These are the guys who are writing the tabs for us and explaining how to do it. They learned it by being in the trenches and creating all those great sounds. I.M.H.O.- If you want to get better, keep playing, learn as much as your head can hold and then apply what you've learned in a live venue. Who cares if you make mistakes, believe me, you won't make them next time.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Yeah, it's a funny thing... once the adrenaline and endorphins kick in (or is it the beer?), we are often the in the worst position to judge our own playing in real time. Many times when I thought the band sounded terrific, I'd listen to a recording afterwards and... we sucked! What can I say? I'm just not a credible witness when I'm on stage. So best to fuggedaboudit and just shoot for the moon! If nothing else, people will appreciate your enthusiasm and wild abandon! Smile

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Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

great thread !

Roger said,

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I believe that ears are really the guiding force in music. All music is essentially played by ear. Unfortunately, there are many people who don't have good ears for music. It's not so much talent, but ears.
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