E9th 4, 8, and 9th strings sharp...WHY?

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I can tune the 4, 8th and 9th strings to perfect pitch. But when I take the square end of my bar (so I can see exactly where I am at) and move it directly over the 1st fret, the 4th and 8th strings are sharp. This with NO pedals engaged. I have to back the bar off 1/2 fret to get the correct pitch, according to my Strobe-O-flip tuner. The 9th string has the same problem, but I only have to back down 1/4 of the fret. I tried new strings and tried temper tuning vs. straight up and down tuning. It doesn't make any difference. My ears can hear that the strings are sharp. I can't very well back down 1/2 on the fret for the 4th and 8th strings strings and 1/4 fret for the 9th string, because then, all the other strings will be flat. The only thing I can think of is that maybe the tuner is off on these strings at the first fret only, but then my ears will have to be off too, because I can hear that these 3 strings are out of tune on the first fret. Other fret postions up and down the neck seem to be fine, with or without pedals.

I play a lot in F and wish I could figure out what is going on. Anybody had a similar experence or have any ideas? Can somebody check their guitars, preferably with a Strobe-o-flip and see if they have the same problem? It should not matter, but the guitar is Zum.

Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

George
are your strings the same hight at the first fret ??? maybe its downward pressure at that fret that causes this

what do the strings look like at the 12th fret with your strobe ??

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Bob, I had already tried your suggestion. If I get the 4th string open to a perfect E, then check it at the 12t fret, the bar as to be back about 1/16 inch from the fret marker to still be a perfect E. If I move up to the 13th fret to check the F, then the bar has to be back about 1/3 of the way, otherwise the F is sharp.

All of this is very strange to me, but actually when I am playing a song with the band or a track I don't notice it so I guess it is just something I will have to live with. It just doesn't make any sense to me unless the tuner is out of whack a bit.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Really stupid question time. Might you actually be leaning a bit on your F lever?
or on the D# lever when you tune?
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Jack Goodson · From: new brockton,alabama (deceased)

might want to check the fretboard, it could have been replaced at some time and is not installed correctly....thanks jack

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Lane, not a stupid question at all. A very good question, actually. I thought I was sitting away from all the pedals and knee levers, but I wasn't sure. So I just sat down at the guitar again, just to be sure, thanks to your question. I have been sitting back in a non-playing position, so I have not been touching any knee levers, but you asked an important question.

I thought that since I was turning the bar sideways and parallel to the strings and only touching one string with the bar, perhaps I was exerting pressure downward on the one string by the weight of the bar, causing the string to go sharp, but not the case. I really tried a light touch with the bar and tried it on other strings with no problem. I wish you and maybe Bob that also responded, take your tuners, whether it is a Strobo flip or not, and see what result you guys get when you get the 4th string open to a perfect E, then turn the bar parallel to the strings with the square end of the bar towards the changer end of the guitar. By eyesight, where does the end of the bar have to be on the 1st fret to get a perfect F note.

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

George, You mentioned your stroboflip tuner...I am goin' out on a limb here and take a wild guess...there are "sweetened tunings (a couple)on the Stroboflip which has the "E's" sharped by as much as 10cents and usually the "F" is flat by almost a quarter of a fret. It is not unusual to have the "F" flat by 14 to 20c.Maybe others will chime in here on the subject.
One of my biggest hurdles to overcome is the "visual" placement of the bar over the fret as compared to"hearing" the note! I don't think it's that unusual for the bar to be either in front of the fret marker or behind it to achieve the desired note.
Also play your guitar for a few minutes to warm up your strings and then check your tuner. I also think you need downward pressure on your strings if you don't have gauged rollers at the nut.
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Sonny Priddy · From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.

I'd Say Check Your Fret Board Sounds like It;s Off Some, SONNY,

Hans Penner · From: Manitoba, Canada

George, I have a Zum Stage One and a Stroboflip.
I ran the test you wanted and my results are the same as yours.
I am using the sweetened SE9 setup.
I'm a newbie who recently posted a similar question.
The answer I'd like to propose is this;
when you play, you use vibrato and your ear, as you pointed out, can't hear any problem.
With the vibrato, your ear "hears" the F as being correct.
Pedal steels need to be sweetened for reasons that I am not wise enough to explain, yet. Whoa!

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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Hans, whether or not it "needs" to get sweetened remains up for debate.
Buddy Emmons and others have argued that just because the steel CAN revert to Just Intonation doesn't mean it SHOULD.
If you wanna discuss that one, we can revive one of those threads.
Some folk swear BY sweetened tunings, some swear AT them.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bo Legg · Posted 22 Nov 2011 2:46 am

Some of the notes on each string as you move up the neck will appear sharp to your strob presets and sound sharp to the ear because the notes are heard and recognized by the storb relative to the E chord and some notes would need to be detuned for harmony sake.
The F note raised ½ step by lever from the open E note is a detuned 3rd in harmony with the C# major chord.
As a consequence the F note exactly over the 1st fret will sound noticeably sharp because your preset and your ear recognize that F note needing to be detuned for harmony sake.
However if you strum the no pedals F chord at the first fret the F note will sound OK to your ear because it is not necessary to detune the tonic of the F chord for harmony sake.
A similar phenomena occurs on the 9th string as well.
A preset in a tuner is for tuning and retuning ease not gauging tonality accuracy at each fret.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Take the strobotuner and turn it on, tune your E's to it, , shut the strobotuner off, tune everything up by ear to the E's you just tuned to the strobotuner, tune your pedals and levers by EAR, and you'll be good to go..
I used to get all kinds of sharp and flat notes using the straight back of the bar directly over the fret, on all kinds of steels with various high tech tuning devices...

For the last 30 or so years, I tune my guitar up so it sounds good, and play it...
Too much responsiblity given to the strobotuner. Smile

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Bob Knight · From: Bowling Green KY

All fret boards are "not created equal", nor are their installations........ Whoa!

You might try measuring your scale and make sure your fret board is accurate. Shocked

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The Strobe-o-Flip tuner tunes your guitar to just intonation on the open strings. Part of that tuning method sets the F lever to be quite a bit flat of equal temperament.

When you place your bar at the first fret and test the E string with the tuner, it "hears" an F note and and assumes you are tuning your open F (the F lever). The F at the first fret is quite a bit sharp of the F of the F lever (which is technically an E#).

Your guitar is not out of tune at the first fret. You are the victim of a technology that hides the finer details of tuning a pedal steel.

The frets are only rough guides. Your ears, not your eyes, should tell you when your bar is at the right place.
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Set your Strobo-Flip to Equal Temperment. Then repeat your test and report back. If the problem doesn't go away, your fret board is not positioned correctly. However, I seriously doubt that it's a fretboard issue.

If the tuner is set on either of the sweetened settings, the F tone it is measuring is assuming you are using the F knee lever, and the value it is reporting as F is very flat. So when you place the bar directly over the first fret on strings 4 & 8, your tuner will tell you that you are very sharp.

If you tune with just intonation (sweetened settings) there are two very different F pitches you should be getting: first, you should be able to get a true F (by that I mean a full concert pitch F, i.e., A-440), by accurately placing the bar on the first fret: and second, the sweetened F (which is very flat) created by use of the F lever.

The fretted F and the levered F are NOT the same.

Don't confuse which F you are measuring!!

Bob Knight · From: Bowling Green KY

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

But I thought he said that it was ONLY 4, 8 and 9. This makes me doubt fretboard. If the other strings are all good, I'd check the roller nut. If it somehow went cam-shaped, or a tapered set got installed out of order, they wouldn't start at a straight line.
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More amps than guitars, and not many effects

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Like usual, you guys have the answers. I appreciate you, Hans, taking the time to running the same test with your Zum and Stroboflip. I especially appreciated each of you that really zoomed in on the technical aspects of a strobe tuner to tune a pedal steel. As Bob pointed out, I am a victim of technology. My steel does sound in tune, so I have no complaints. I just thought I might be loosing my ears when I first noticed
this.

One final, sort of related question: Having attended many of Jeff Newman's classes in Nashville and hearing him harp on the tempered tuning, I have been using his sweetened tuning with the E's tuned sharp for many years now. He taught that this tuning would make you sound better in tune with the band, even though it might make your guitar sound a bit out of tune by itself. I just went to the sweetened tuning on the strobe-o-flip with the E's straight up and down, not tempered. My guitar does sound in better tune with that tuning. So, I am going to give the tuning a whirl this weekend and see if me or the band can notice a difference. Does it boil down to "Do you want your guitar to be in tune with it's self or with the band?"

I think a lot of players miss Jeff's point when they argue that you should tune the guitar so that it sounds in tune to your ears. If you do this and it sounds in tune with itself, but out of tune with the band, then are you right or wrong? There are really good players, who swear by one tuning temperment over the other, and I can't tell any difference when they play. They all sound great either way. Does anybody know which pro's tune which way? I know Bryan Adams tunes his E's straight up with no temperment and he always sounds great and right on pitch to me. I am looking forward to trying the straight E's Friday and Saturday to see how I like it.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

If you use a "sweetened" tuning (just intonation) with E's "straight up" (equal temperament), all of the rest of the notes on your open strings will be slightly flat of the band. You correct this with the bar by ear when you play.

If you want your open strings to sound in tune with a band, you have to start with the E's slightly sharp. That raises the whole guitar up a bit, so that the average tonal center of your open chords will be in tune with the band. Most steel players today are doing this.
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

While I agree that JI sounds sweeter, am I the only one struck by the irony in adjusting JI to accommodate ET?
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More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

b0b (or anyone)-
so if you tune your E's slightly sharp (and your G# slightly flat?), do you keep that difference for the "pedals down" notes (D#, F, A) or tune those straight up?

I used Paul Brainard's method of just tuning the G# flat enough so that it was in tune with the E in the pedals down position, which takes into account cabinet drop (the E goes slightly flat in pedals down)...but that isn't really working, I'm flat somewhere relative to the guitar player...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If you want to be perfectly in tune with the guitar or keyboard, you might wanna abandon JI/sweetened tuning and tune to the same ET that they do.

Newman's idea was basically to take the JI chart and raise it five cents or so, so that instead of most notes getting flatted relative to everyone else, some get sharped. That way the chords aggregate to sounding in tune with the other cats on the stage. Make sense?
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Lane-
Makes sense...what about cabinet drop? Need to tune the E for both pedals-down (slightly flat) and no-pedals (in tune)...tuning the G# a little flat helped with that..., kept them in tune with each other, than can just use bar position to bring it up a touch...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Since every guitar has different amounts, you'll either have to adjust by ear or customize your tuner program.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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