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Topic: E9 6th lower to F# shares what pulls on your guitar? |
Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 9:51 am |
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Considering adding this change to my guitar and will need to share the change with another pull from a knee.
Considering adding to:
2 and 9 lowers
or
1 and 7 raise (my set up = 1 whole tone raise, 7 is half tone raise)
With 2-n-9 lowers I get the 2nd scale degree on string 2, 3rd on string 4, 4th on string 4, 5th on string 1 and 6th on string 1. Unison with string 7.
With 1-n-7 raise I get a 6th on 1, still can do 3rd and 4th on string 4, 3rd on string 2, #5th on string 7. Two unisons this way, 6-n-7 and 2-n-4.
Thoughts?
I know it depends on the kind of music one plays. Looks like if I want a 6th (in the B chord made at the nut with this change), adding it with the 1-n-7 raise change would be good.
If I wanted the scale runs playing 1 through 6 of the B major scale, adding it to the 2-n-7 lowers would be good. Right?
Last edited by Brian McGaughey on 10 Nov 2011 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 10:04 am
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It's typically used instead of the 7th string raise. You will hear some sympathetic dissonance if you lowered G# to F# and raised the adjacent F# to G at the same time. Remember that you can get the G note on the 6th string with a tunable split.
Putting G# to F# on the lever that lowers string 9 D to C# would mess up your C#m7 chord. I use that position a lot.
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 10:24 am
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Over the years, the most I have seen is with the 1st and 2nd string raises (G# -maybe even just the G- and E) or on the lever with the 2nd string drop. I have it on it's own lever (RKR - it had the 1st & 2nd string raise on the same lever when I ordered the guitar but moved those later to a different lever). I also have 2 pulls on my C neck on that lever, and all 5 pulls was just too hard to push as quickly as I need to hit that lever.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 11:33 am
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| None. I have it by itself on LKR. (E lowers on RKL) |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 11:43 am
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I have it with 1st string +½
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 2:43 pm
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I have it on LKV all by itself. It used to be on the lever that raises 1 & 2, but I like to raise and lower the 2nd string without the main tuning changing. So I had to get rid of the B lower lever. If I had a sixth knee lever on E9, I would bring back the 5 & 10 lower. Btw, when I split the lever up I added a ninth string raise to D# on LkR which raises 1 & 2. It can be used many ways, but it's especially handy for fast tunes when you're coming down through the five chord.
Lane, I think I'm going to add a pull up to G on string one with my VL. Makes sense, just can't find a wrench right now... |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 2:59 pm
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Another vote for 1st string half raise along with the whole step drop on 6. My Carter was set up to raise 1 a whole, but when I tuned it at the end plate for only a half raise, I found I got a pretty good feel stop at G on 6, plus with a split on 6, that lever (LKR in my case) gives Dom 7 on 1 & 6 with A&B down as well as the augmented fifth for the no pedals chord on 5,2,1.
Probably does other things I haven't discovered yet as well.
Chris
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Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 3:14 pm
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what Richard S wrote : " the most I have seen is with the 1st and 2nd string raises (G# -maybe even just the G- and E)"
i would'nt put it on the 2nd & 9th string lowers
many choose either the F# to G or G# on 7
or the G# to F# lower on 6 w: a knee lever
those who have the 0 or 4 Franklin pedal have the G# to F# lower on 6 |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 3:28 pm
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I would only put it on the lever with the 2nd string lowers if I was playing a Push/Pull. That way the A note on the B pedal would over-ride the lower to F#.
On the Williams I used to have, I had both the 6th lower to F# and the 7th raise to G#. Prefer the 6th lower, but both were cool. I raised the 7th to G# with the first to G# and second to E.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 3:42 pm
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I've got it with the first and second string raises on RKL, with a very light feel stop for strings 1 and 6 at a G.
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 4:05 pm
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Brett and Chris, the combination with a 1st string +½ wasn't my idea: it was on the tab of a bunch of Ray Price shuffles Buddy had out. I had to rerod my 1st guitar to do it, it had 1&7 +½, a popular change in the 70s (I bought it used in 80)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2011 8:31 pm
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| I have it with the 1 and 2 raises.... But I would like to have the 1 and 2 raises with the 7th string raise ala P Franklin I also want the string 2 raise with the string 6 lower ala Emmons. I see the logic in both approaches and would like to have both. However, I'm at 4 pedals and 6 knees on S-10 E9 and don't know where I'm going to put another right knee lever. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 8:36 am
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I have it on the same lever that lowers the 2nd string from D# to D/C#.
I don't have the D to C# lower on the 9th string. |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2011 10:59 am
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Thanks fellows.
I played around with potential combinations this morning and putting the 6th full lower with 2-n-9 lowers definetly won't work as I have a move I use often going from the I7 to the 4 on strings 2 and 6.
I could possibly see combining it with 7-n-1 raises but I would have to stay far far away from the 7th string to avoid possible dissonance from the 7th G note, like b0b mentioned, (6 IS right next door!). I raise 7 to G and 1 to G#. Can't do a split for G on string 6 (no splits this guitar) and I've really come to like the 7th 1/2 raise for dom 7ths with AB and also for minor 3rds no pedals.
I suppose I'm not so much looking for contemporary sounds as evidenced by my concern for keeping the b7ths around.
I've gotten quite used to reach around the 6th string to get the 5th chord of the scale. Same with 1-n-2 combo raises...I've got used to reaching back and forth for 1-n-2 or 3-n-4. No slurred resolve granted, but I like the sound I get.
I could see that if a player is committed to the 6th string lower, a dedicated pull is in order. I'm not sure it's worth it to me, but I think I'll order the parts and give it a go putting it with 7th 1/2 raise and 1 full raise. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 14 Nov 2011 1:42 pm
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If yours is a modern guitar with multiple slots on the bellcranks, you can achieve a half stop by speeding up the 7th and 6 string raises and lowers so they kick in when the first string is at G, Or just speed up 1 of them if doing both of them make it too stiff
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2011 1:49 pm
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| All by it's lonesome self on my ShoBud S-10. But I have 5 more levers to get the other stuff. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 Nov 2011 5:12 pm
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| Quote: |
| Can't do a split for G on string 6 (no splits this guitar) |
You don't say what brand guitar you have, but your avatar shows an MSA. You should be able to add the split by using the "additional rod method". You would attach another pull rod to your F# lower lever and run it through the upper most raise hole in your changer. Now, you would tune the open G#, then the pedaled A note with the regular raise nylon tuner, then press both the pedal and lever to your G note and tune the G with the nylon tuner on the lower, and finally press just the lever to get the F# (it is probably slightly flat - and, I tune it with the E to Eb lever engaged as the two combine to make a major chord - B open - and I want that chord to be in tune ) and turn the nylon tuner on the rod you just added and bring it back up to F#.
A half stop on 6 is also possible like Lane says. I prefer the split to a half stop, but either should work.
| Quote: |
| I suppose I'm not so much looking for contemporary sounds as evidenced by my concern for keeping the b7ths around. |
That lever isn't what you would call "contemporary". I assume you mean that to be the sounds you hear in modern country music. Emmons, Hughey and others were using this change as far back as I can remember.
It wouldn't work on the lever where you raise 7 to G as you now lose the A note (unless you have a push/pull) on string 6 eliminating the root tone in the pedals down position. I used to raise the 7th string to G (along with string 1) but have opted to use the split on 6 rather that the G on 7 and have taken that change off the guitar.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2011 8:50 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| It wouldn't work on the lever where you raise 7 to G as you now lose the A note (unless you have a push/pull) on string 6 eliminating the root tone in the pedals down position. I used to raise the 7th string to G (along with string 1) but have opted to use the split on 6 rather that the G on 7 and have taken that change off the guitar. |
Richard, are you lowering the A on string 6 to G or lowering the G# on string 6 to F#, or both? I can't do both on my guitar.
I had assumed it's lowering the G# to F#, that is, no pedals I chord on strings 4,5,6 to the V by lowering the Es to Eb and lowering the G# to F#.
I may be missing it but I can't figure out why I couldn't combine that change with the same change that raises 7 and 1, and never use pedal 2 when engaging the 6th lower. If I want a G it'll be on string 7 when raised, and this is used pretty much exclusively as a flat 7, and if I want to slur from a I to a V, or a IV to a I, I use string 6 with 5 and 4.
I have a Franklin guitar and I know from my 5th string lower on the left vert knee that I can't get the Bb (no pedal 1) and the C (engaged pedal 1) both in tune. I've got to pick one or the other. This would be the case if I tried to get both the G and F# on string 6. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 Nov 2011 9:20 pm
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| Quote: |
| Richard, are you lowering the A on string 6 to G or lowering the G# on string 6 to F#, or both? I can't do both on my guitar |
Technically both. If you combine pedal 2 and the lever, you are basically raising G# to A and then lowering A to G. That is what a split tuner does. If you have an all pull guitar, you can add the rod to the lever to make it a split tuner (real easy). Only push/pulls and maybe pull/release changers can't do it. This technique should work on a Franklin. I don't understand why a builder wouldn't automatically put a split tuner on a guitar that lowers B to Bb and also the 6th to F#. That should be standard practice.
As far as the G note on string 7, and you will see and hear this countless times on the forum, it's not always the note, but how you get to that note. There is so much melody and other cool stuff you can do on string 6 by having all those notes available without have to mute a string and pick a different string. I got rid of the G on string 7 because there are many other 7th chords available on the guitar that sound better than the A&B+lever chord.
| Quote: |
| I may be missing it but I can't figure out why I couldn't combine that change with the same change that raises 7 and 1, and never use pedal 2 when engaging the 6th lower. If I want a G it'll be on string 7 when raised, and this is used pretty much exclusively as a flat 7, and if I want to slur from a I to a V, or a IV to a I, I use string 6 with 5 and 4. |
If you do that, you lose the ability to have a 4 note 7th chord with A&B and the 7th raise to G on strings 4, 5, 6, and 7. As stated above, I didn't really like that voicing, but you might (personal preference here). I prefer to drop the A to a G on string 6. But, your idea may work fine for you. But, if you do add the G# to F# change on 6, seriously consider adding the extra rod to make it a split tuner.
my tuning:
| Tab: |
LKL1 LKL2 LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 RKL RKR
F#....G#..........G
D#....E.....................................D/C#
G#.................................A
E..........D#.........F.......F#
B.........................A...C#.......C#
G#........................F#.......A..............F#
F#
E..........D#.........F
D................C#
B.........................A............C#
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_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2011 9:26 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| If you do that, you lose the ability to have a 4 note 7th chord with A&B and the 7th raise to G on strings 4, 5, 6, and 7. |
Ah hah! Got it. |
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