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Topic: Size of Speakers |
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 12:50 pm |
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Why do steel amps come with 15" speakers? Is there that big of a tone difference than one or two 12" speakers? I know several players play through Twin Reverbs with 12" speakers. I currently play through a Fender Deluxe with one 12", but I would like a little more power.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 1:04 pm
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Most 15" speakers behave/sound so lossy/lousy (you choose descriptive word) that the steel's inherent tone don't get through - you hear the speaker not the steel. Some players seem to like that.
If you want more "punch" from a cab with a 12" speaker, close up the back of the cab a little more ... not necessarily completely. That will increase audible output for bass/lower-middle frequencies without altering the overall sound/clarity too much. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 1:45 pm
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Georg,
I don't know where you come up with your advise.
Most steel players prefer an amp with a 15" speaker.
You need a large speaker to handle the range of tones that are available with a pedal steel, especially if you are a C6th player.
The Fender Twin Reverb is an excellent amp for non-pedal but it's very hard to beat the Peavey Nashville 400, with 15" speaker for pedal steel.
Or the Webb with 15" speaker, etc. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 1:51 pm
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| George, I don't know where you are coming from on your seeming advise either. Your wrong. The 15" speaker is by far and away the accepted standard for steel guitar amplification. Maybe you on play the first 4 strings? |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 2:00 pm
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| Quote: |
| Most 15" speakers behave/sound so lossy/lousy (you choose descriptive word) that the steel's inherent tone don't get through - you hear the speaker not the steel. Some players seem to like that. |
I'm not certain if Georg is trying to slam his brothers and sisters here or simply experessing a personal opinion in a over-jealous fashion, but he does not speak at all for the thousands of us who prefer quality 15" speakers because of their superior low end response and efficiency. The JBL 15" speakers that many of us have used for decades still reproduce far more of "the steel's inherent tone" per watt, AND clearly from bottom to top of the tonal spectrum, than any new 12" musical instrument speaker available.
There will always be some who prefer a different speaker because of what it sounds like, but to infer in general that the users of 15" speakers do so because they prefer the sound of the speaker to the sound of their instrument is not only unkind and untrue, but perhaps just the opposite of the fact! |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 3:38 pm
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Sorry guys, I am not trying to slam anyone, just expressing my opinion and professional experience over 40 years in designing and testing speaker-cabs, amps and whole systems. Have used 15" speakers (in my own cabs) with good results, but don't think any steel-player would like to haul cabinets with speakers in the (studio) class I would use around because of the weight - 40 pound magnets (in addition to all the rest the cab is made of and filled with) are probably not what you are used to carry around from stage to stage and back home again. Me neither for that matter.
For the record: lowest fundamental frequency for a regular 10 string E9, is 110Hz with "Franklin pedal". A C6 or Universal can go down to around 55Hz, and a tad lower on a pedal.
My preference Twin-Tuned S10 PSG goes down to 61.9Hz, and I use the low notes all the time while playing so I definitely want a well-balanced bass-punch. I also only use effects made for bass guitars, not steels, on my PSGs - and I do play bass guitar when I can find the time.
I am of the impression that most steelers like the voicing they get with a 15" speaker. That's OK with me - we all have our preferences - but I personally don't like that voicing and I see no point in burning off much amp-effect on sub-harmonics.
I prefer good long-throw (studio-reference) speakers of smaller size, and weight, in cabinets built for the speaker. My now pretty old 7" KEFs in tailored cab will put out 200-400% more punch (audible effect) from the designed roll-off frequency of 30Hz up to around 5KHz, than any 15" speaker in more regular steel-amp cabinets will, while reproducing the steel's fundamentals, harmonics and subharmonics crystal-clear.
Since most steel players would not be in the position to, and definitely not like the thought of playing through tiny but precise 7" speakers in tailored cabs, the next best thing IMO is to get more out of regular cabs with 12" speakers, hence my recommendation. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 3:42 pm
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| A properly ported and tuned 10" cab will blow you away with its clear low end.............. |
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Cal Sharp
From:
the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 4:44 pm
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| Well,my favorite is the 15" BW in my Session 500,but at 81 pounds,that one doesn't go to work unless I REALLY feel motivated.Usually I just bring a Nashville 112 or if I'm using just one amp and playing a lot of six-string,a Music Man 212 HD-150.But if I had my druthers....... |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 6:28 pm
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How much does the Session 400 weigh?
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Billy Tonnesen
From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 7:01 pm
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| I don't know if they are still made, but my favorite Anp in the early years was a Feender Bassman with four 10" inch speakers. Plenty of punch, hard to ever distort and a great sound. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 7:19 pm
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| Doesn't Ken Fox make a 4-10"? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 21 Sep 2011 9:55 pm
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| Curt Langston wrote: |
| A properly ported and tuned 10" cab will blow you away with its clear low end.............. |
It will indeed!
But what most steel players use is a 15" speaker in an open-back cabinet, and all they get is attenuated highs and a natural roll-off of lower frequencies because the non-directional output from the backside of the cab short out the lows coming from the front. That's the law of nature and it doesn't matter one iota what anyone may think or argue about the matter.
The fact that some like the voicing of 15" speakers in open-back cabinets is another matter, and I am not going to argue against their preferences.
All I will say is that no amount of amp-power can overcome the laws of nature regarding low-frequency canceling between back and front in open-back cabs, so apart from reducing the sometimes problematic highs those who use 15" speakers in such cabinets are just burning off amp-effect to no avail trying to reproduce clear lows.
Maybe most steelers don't like clear lows? If so, there are better, cheaper and "lower weight" solutions at hand.
I do like perfectly clear lows, and the most effective cab with a 15" speaker I have ever built had a resonance frequency of 6Hz - way below what humans can hear but we definitely can feel it. Never used it for steel, it was built for bass-guitar and guitar.
My 7" speaker cab has a resonance freq of around 16Hz, which is why I rolled it off electronically from 30Hz down. It doesn't sound super-loud close up - mainly because of its sound-clarity, but it sure carries far. Delivering clear bass tones over a couple of miles when powered by an SS 70 Watt Sentec "Otala" amp (<0.1 THD) and competing with regular 2000 Watt+ PA systems, never was a problem. So, size (and power) isn't all that matters.
My two NV-112 are in need of an acoustic upgrade in order to deliver anywhere near their true potentials, but I don't play loud these days so it can wait. They don't need larger speakers. |
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John Gould
From:
Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX
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Posted 22 Sep 2011 8:39 am ok
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Well I feel I need to jump in here and give my 2 pennies worth. I've worked for 2 different MI companies as a product specialist, not that it gives me a PHD or anything but some back round. When we were building and designing amps we would voice a speaker for the amp. Voicing a speaker had nothing to do with the speaker size. The material the cone and voice coil are made out of have a big impact on frequency response of the speaker. If you don't believe me you can do a simple test with a couple of different brands of speakers of the same size. Just thump the cone with your finger you can tell much of the characteristics of the sound of the speaker. The size of a speaker does have a impact on how fast it responds to the signal it is receiving. So that why you don't really see a 18 inch full range speaker. Also the cabinet has a big part of how much of what we hear coming out of the speaker. Box volume, port length, material construction so on have a big impact of what we hear from the speaker. You can take the right 6X9 speaker in the right box and it will go down to 20hz. Without some crazy processor. I could go on and on about cab design and speaker construction, the bottom line is what sounds good to you.
_________________
A couple of guitars
Fender GTX 100 Fender Mustang III Fender Blues Jr. Boss Katana MKII 50
Justice Pro Lite and Sho Bud Pro II |
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Elton Smith
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2011 6:34 pm
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Thats some pretty heavey stuff guys.I play thru an 80 model peavey special 150,and it sounds great to me.But most of the time its miked thru the p.a. system.All my notes are clear but does reproducing the sound have anything to do with how the amp sounds?We dial in the sound we want no matter how the amp sounds.I guess what Im trying to ask is does it matter if Im sitting in the practice hall unmiked how it sounds or in a concert with 2000 watts +?
_________________
Gibson Les Paul
Reverend Avenger
Paul Reed Smith
Fender Telecaster
MSA S10 Classic
ShoBud
Old Peavy Amps |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 22 Sep 2011 10:17 pm
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| Elton Smith wrote: |
| I guess what Im trying to ask is does it matter if Im sitting in the practice hall unmiked how it sounds or in a concert with 2000 watts +? |
Not sure what you're asking here, but if you're happy with the sound in the various venues you are playing in then I guess your sound-chain is OK.
I have no idea if I would agree if I heard it, but who cares...
I have never heard any sound-man being able to correct "phase twisting", which is inherent to steel sound-chains and especially those with large speakers. Equalizers used to "dial in" are also far from phase-linear, which is just one of the reasons what comes out of 2000+ Watt sound-systems often sound so bad - regardless of instruments/voices.
Of course, I have never bothered to use a steel-amp if I was going to play through a 2000+ Watt sound-system anyway, and my pre-amp system which puts out isolated line or mic level signal(s) is pretty phase- and frequency-linear between the instrument-dependent roll-offs so the sound-man only has to fix his own system.
As a sound-man and recording engineer myself, I know how to get the most out of most sound-systems, but the few times I take on a job I often use far more time physically aligning speakers and balancing amps for the venue than I do turning knobs, in order to get it all to sound right for as many as possible. |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 1:39 am
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A 15 is popular I thought, because you have your tone in your face and to the back of the room. I've always heard that if you take a 10 or 12 ince with the same power as the 15 it takes more distance for it to project the sound, but at a distance will sound the same. IMHO
I have been wrong before.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 4:04 am
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I have amps with 15 inch open back and closed back.
Sometimes play through 2-12s, currently and mostly play through my Fox 4-10.
The rack sys has like 1200 watts and the Fox Vintage is 30-40 amps.
Seems to me the quality of the amp plays a big part in it.
I have a friend here in Austin that builds Bass guitar cabs with one ten inch speaker that will make you scratch your head...
How can that sound come out of that tiny box?
All these amps sound good.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 8:32 am
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Well, I kinda have to mark myself down in the "little speaker camp." What a 15" speaker IS, as what every speaker IS, is a big, final tone control. For those people who say they like the natural, unadorned tone of a pedal steel guitar, with no processing - what you need to do one day is plug your steel into a direct box, into a powered P.A. system, into some "flat" speaker system with enough horns and tweeters to really amplify the frequencies above 6K or so. After you've cleared the neighborhood of dogs and bats and cracked a few windows and teeth, you'll realize that you like some aspects of your fave signal chain because they KILL OFF some of that natural, unadorned tone.
If you look at the response curves of just about any speaker - 8" -> 18" - you'll see there is a drastic rolloff of frequency reproduction above about 2K to 2.5K. There are small differences between speakers there, and reason there are so many speakers available is because that frequency range is critical for listening enjoyment, which goes back to the evolution of the human brain concurrent with speech and sound perception, the "mapping" of frequencies within the brain. Gee does music in the same frequency range as a lion's roar seem scary? But that's another subject.
The fact is that a 15" speaker both kills off a lot of highs, and also compresses and delays the signal a good bit - and that's a good thing, for a lot of people. I prefer 12" speakers, as they are a bit quicker and allow me more options to shape the tone in other ways - but it is a preference. There is no more "one perfect speaker" than there is "one perfect guitar cord", as the cords you use change the capacitance of the pickup/preamp system. Which is why Strat-slingers from Hendrix to Eric Johnson to Julian Kasper always carry a fat old high-capacitance cable into a recording studio, as another global tone control device. I wonder how many steelers who say 15" speakers are "best" also say George L's low-capacitance cables are "best" - because a big speaker effectively cancels out the characteristics of a low-capacitance cord.... |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 9:01 am
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I'm respectful of all of the opinions expressed here, so I humbly submit my view.
I've lived with the evolution of speakers since the late 1940's when I played a Sears amp, then the early 1950's when I played a Fender, then in the 60's when I played Standel's, then Peavey's in the 70's, and finally in the 80's nd 90's with a botique amp that served all of my limited needs.
I even have a Peavey 112 for backup that I have used only once. It is a great amp for recording, but fails in reaching the "back of the room" in a live gig in a joint without a sound system.
Respectfully,
Gene
_________________
"FROM THEN TIL' NOW" |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 2:32 pm
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| David Mason wrote: |
The fact is that a 15" speaker both kills off a lot of highs, and also compresses and delays the signal a good bit - and that's a good thing, |
Have you ever played through an Evans with a JBL D-130?
Its very bright and uncompressed.. like .. alot
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Scott Appleton
From:
Ashland, Oregon
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Posted 23 Sep 2011 3:41 pm 15 speaker
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Got to say here it depends on the application .. I use a NV 400 with the stock 15 and it has all the tone i could wish for .. its got plenty of punch in the low end for my 70 guage string .. and plenty of sparkle for my 11.5's I also play through a DR with a jbl 12 and that sounds fantastic for low volume shows ... the nv400 with the 15 is the bomb .. i also have a vibrasonic with a neo 15 and it's the bomb as well ..
I rather like 15" the best .. better low end .. that 12" don't. |
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Ray DeVoe
From:
Hudson, FL
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 3:50 am speaker size
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There will always be players who prefer a 15" speaker and others that swear by a 12" speaker in the right cabinet setup. I find that I can achieve a terrific sound using either when they are in the right setup.
I personally have found what I think is the best of all worlds. My ultimate setup is not for everyone as many players want to walk in to the job site with everything needed to play in a maximum of two trips from the vehicle. This is smart thinking especially if the amp is mic'd or ran direct through the sound system. I'm not always "smart" though as I am a fanatic when it comes to tone.
With all of the above being stated, my new ultimate setup consists of an 800 watt rig starting with the Sarno Revelation preamp, into a TC Furlong 12" VB split with Eminence speaker on one side and a 15" open back Furlong split with new Eminence EPS 15" speaker on the other. In my opinion, this is the best of all worlds and it solves the solution as to which is best. My guitars are Emmons PP's but any guitar would sound terrific through this rig.
RD
_________________
Zum SD 10 Hybrid, Zum D 10 Hybrid, Emmons SD 10 P.P.
SMS: Revelation & Classic Preamps: Furlong 12" Splits.
Webb 15" Splits: Telonics 500 C: Quilter-T.T.12":
Last edited by Ray DeVoe on 24 Sep 2011 4:24 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 24 Sep 2011 9:07 am
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| Quote: |
| I have never heard any sound-man being able to correct "phase twisting", which is inherent to steel sound-chains and especially those with large speakers. Equalizers used to "dial in" are also far from phase-linear, which is just one of the reasons what comes out of 2000+ Watt sound-systems often sound so bad - regardless of instruments/voices. |
Sorry, Georg, you keep touching on science then tossing it on its head for effect and at this point your signal-to-noise ratio is getting out of hand. Still it's your thread so you just go ahead on with your rant and I'll be down the road, making 2000+ watt sound systems sound great EVERY DAY - regardless of source material or your opinions about how things work. |
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