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Topic: Does playing PSG harm your dobro technique or vice versa? |
Chris Tweed
From:
Cardiff, Wales, UK
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 11:32 am |
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There seems to be a strong opinion among some dobro players that learning to play PSG can be damaging to one's dobro playing skills. Jerry Dobro has reputedly said so, and a dobro tutor I met this weekend said something similar.
I know there are several excellent musicians who play both very well—Mike Auldridge and Al Perkins, to name just two—but they seem to be in the minority. In contrast, Jerry Douglas, Cindy Cashdollar and (as far as I know) Rob Ickes have not succumbed to the lure of the pedal, though all have played electric, non-pedal.
Having played dobro—both bluegrass and country style—for many years and having recently started to learn PSG, I'm interested to know if others have noticed any problems in playing both. Personally, I have found some benefits from learning PSG as it has forced me to improve my palm and pick blocking techniques, which has paid off on the dobro. On the other hand, I often get confused about where I am on the neck of both instruments 
Chris |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 11:56 am
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I play both, and have not experienced a technique problem. I also play several other instruments.
It probably helped that I developed proficient technique on each before learning the next. They were all seperated by at least 5 years.
I wouldn't advise trying to learn both at the same time. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 11:57 am
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Hi Chris. I'm certainly nowhere in the league of the players you mention and I can only state what has been my experience.
In my case, one only serves to enhance the other. Yes, the root tuning is different, but it's only a small mental adjustment to make with practice. One could make the same argument about switching from E9 to C6 or from standard guitar to steel.
Once in the learning mode, the brain seems to be more receptive to new ideas.
I'd be a fool to dispute the findings of a master like Jerry Douglas, but he's on a level almost unto himself. Some of us lesser musicians find much joy in playing several instruments. |
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Russ Tkac
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 12:13 pm
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Perhaps to get to the level of Jerry, or the other greats, it would be best to concentrate all your efforts on one instrument.
I don't have to worry about that, and enjoy the variety.
For me, learning another instrument provides greater understanding of those I already play. |
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Bob Blair
From:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 12:37 pm
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| In my experience, they are more likely to enhance one another. Having a broader range of music to play and people to play it with is a good thing, and adding new instruments can contribute to that. And many of the new things that you can learn in a musically expanded universe will contribute to your overall musicality. As far as dobro playing (which is a new direction for me) goes, I think my pedal steel background has allowed me to hit the ground running. |
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Chris Tweed
From:
Cardiff, Wales, UK
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 12:40 pm
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@Joey: yes, I think it has helped having played dobro for a good few years.
@Jerry: one of the warnings I've heard from dobro players if that playing can mess with your muscle memory because of the different string spacing between PSG and dobro.
@Russ: great video. I'm a big fan of Greg Booth's dobro playing, but I hadn't seen/heard him play PSG before. Thanks.
Chris |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 1:02 pm
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buddy emmons plays great dobro..
rusty young "
doug jernigan "
norm hamlett "
sonny garrish "
and on and on....
they are good musicians.. |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 1:16 pm
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Lloyd Green - check out the Don Williams recordings.
Dobro Player / Teaching Guru Jimmy Heffernan toured with Brad Paisley playing Steel.
Mike Auldrich has already been mentioned. |
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Joe Rogers
From:
Lake Charles, LA USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 2:20 pm
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Doesn't seem to hurt Tommy White's technique, he is a steam roller on either instrument... 
Joe Rogers |
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Chris Bauer
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 3:20 pm
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| After all these years, I have just recently become a bit reso-obsessed again. For me, it's been waaaaaay tougher to move from the D reso tuning I've now used for a few decades to the G tuning than it's ever been to switch between dobro and pedal steel. That tuning switch is really the only place where I've had the muscle memory issue show up in a big way. |
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Dave A. Burley
From:
Franklin, In. USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2011 6:02 pm Dobro
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Josh Graves started out playing the Dobro with an Earl Scruggs roll back in the fifties I believe. I have heard many steel players play good Dobro but without using the Scruggs roll. I play a little five string banjo so when I started doing a little Dobro a year or so ago it was fairly easy to get the roll in. I also play a little pedal steel and switching the instruments in mid-stream doesn't seem to bother me, probably because of playing banjo. The youtube video here in this thread..'Wichita Lineman' is absolutely great but no Scruggs roll. By the way, who is that playing?
Thanks,
Dave A. Burley
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 14 Sep 2011 6:46 am the touch?
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I play both and it seems to be OK. But, like was said above, if you want to be top dog on an instrument, maybe it's best to focus on just one instrument. I think Jerry Douglas mentioned that he didn't want to switch around a lot, because of his attack. That is, his tone comes from picking his dobro hard, really hard. When you play PSG, it is a a softer attack. This is similar to acoustic flat-pickers who play hard on a D-28 with stiff picks and say they won't play a tele, as the change in the attack (or touch) is too much of a shift for them. I'm not sure this is completely true. It might be just a matter of singleness of focus.
One other thing you have to change (in my opinion) is left hand vibrato. For dobro, (if you want to sound like a dobro player), you have to back off on the vibrato a bit. This is actually (for me) a bit harder than adjusting the right hand pick attack.
So with all of this, you have to ask yourself. Where do I want to go with these instruments? Do I want to be a star? Or do I want to be "marketable" and versatile and be able to play in more situations, at the sacrifice of not being the "top dog" on your axe. For me, the journey is more rewarding than the destination. Since the financial rewards aren't that great, it has to be fun, too. For me, playing dobro AND steel is way more fun than just playing one of these instruments.
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Jim Eaton
From:
Santa Susana, Ca
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Posted 14 Sep 2011 3:16 pm
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I find my feet trying to play ghost pedals sometimes when I'm playing my Beard Goldtone Dobro!!! 
JE:-)>
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Chris Tweed
From:
Cardiff, Wales, UK
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Posted 15 Sep 2011 9:46 am
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Lots of interesting comments here. Thanks.
Jerry Douglas' reluctance to play PSG can't be entirely about attack -- though that sounds like a valid reason -- because he does play electric lap steel, which he has described as a chainsaw (compared to the dobro as a handsaw).
I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk about the different string spacings, as that would seem to me to be a factor.
I think Dave Burley is on to something when he talks about the Scruggs roll. It seems that only certain styles of dobro playing may be in conflict with PSG playing. Though, I've heard some examples of PSG players using fast rolls too. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2011 10:58 am
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| Chris Tweed wrote: |
Lots of interesting comments here. Thanks.
Jerry Douglas' reluctance to play PSG can't be entirely about attack -- though that sounds like a valid reason -- because he does play electric lap steel, which he has described as a chainsaw (compared to the dobro as a handsaw).
I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk about the different string spacings, as that would seem to me to be a factor.
I think Dave Burley is on to something when he talks about the Scruggs roll. It seems that only certain styles of dobro playing may be in conflict with PSG playing. Though, I've heard some examples of PSG players using fast rolls too. |
Yes. I play an 8 string reso tuned to the first 8 strings of my C6 psg. What I'm playing is alot more like acoustic steel guitar than Dobro. Still, I find that the difference between electric and acoustic is significant. On the electric I play alot less down at the nut and on open strings. And the attack is way different. The string spacing isn't a problem for me. But I think that playing both is alot less difficult for me than someone playing a 6 string reso in G tuning in the bluegrass style.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 16 Sep 2011 1:45 pm Re: Dobro
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| Dave A. Burley wrote: |
. The youtube video here in this thread..'Wichita Lineman' is absolutely great but no Scruggs roll. By the way, who is that playing?
Thanks,
Dave A. Burley |
That's Greg Booth out of Alaska who was mentioned earlier in the thread. Greg is a long-time player of both pedal steel and banjo. He didn't take up dobro until about 2005, and my theory why he progressed so quickly was the decades on the previous two instruments. He's a member here, maybe he'll chime in. He also plays in the veteran Bay Area bluegrasser Kathy Kallick Band, and his son Danny is the bass player.
At any rate, Greg took to dobro like a duck to water.
The deal with Jerry Douglas and the pedal steel as I will paraphrase below - and he spoke at length about this in an interview he did for the short-lived PedalSteel.US magazine several years ago - was that he gave up on pedal steel because he felt it was pushing his dobro playing backwards. No so much that it would permanently do anything like "ruin" his dobro playing, but during the process of learning it was effecting his dobro playing too much, specifically the agressive right hand. On the Golden Gate thumb picks he used to use Jerry has said that he would go through at least two a night for a gig and ruin the blade portion. That is some seriously hard pickin'.
And the dobro is what has always paid the rent and put food on the table for him, so he couldn't afford to have it mess with his technique.
Some of the great pedal steel players that are solid on dobro maybe have played both for decades. When Jerry took up the pedals he was already established as one of the very best on dobro, so maybe the learning process was like when a golfer tries to change his swing and it screws up his game for awhile before all the adjustments "take." In the case of Douglas, the equivalent of "messing with his swing" as a dobro player would be akin to messing with the swing of Tiger Woods back when he was still Tiger Woods.
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Last edited by Mark Eaton on 17 Sep 2011 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 16 Sep 2011 4:24 pm
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Coming from the bluegrass dobro side of the equation, I can almost always tell if a player's primary axe is steel. Not a "bad" thing, just different:
1. Attack. The dobro IS primarily an acoustic guitar. The guitar is picked harder because the guitar is mechanically amplified. When I amplify further with a mic I play it as an acoustic instrument. If amplified by pickup I do alter my right hand technique to become more steel like. It cuts down on extraneous artifacts.
2. Blocking. Blocking IS gaining acceptance on the dobro. When playing in the fashion of "classic" Graves you are rolling and making use of hammer ons and pull offs. You play a lot of notes, filling a lot of space and you need power to make up for lack of sustain. No blocking. When playing more "modern" forms or play longer forms with a pickup I adopt more of a steel technique. After all the pickup is doing a lot of the work, creating sustain that has to be tamed.
3. I actually wear different picks on dobro than I do on steel. Finger pick tips angle out a bit, allow for more "snap" on string attack. My steel picks curve more around the finger tip.
4. I change dobro strings after 2-4 hours of playing. You attack hard you go through a lot of strings. They die VERY quickly. Steel...I love it. Strings seem to last forever.
In my own case, I could make music fairly quickly when I picked up the steel. To this day I really can't say I play with "classic" psg tone. When I get a bit pumped during a gig I can hear my dobro attack creep into my playing. I have to remind myself that I'm playing an instrument that was designed to be electronically amplified. I have to back off, use that volume pedal the way it was designed to be used. Block..block..block.
I've heard dobro recordings and witnessed live dobro performance from many of the psg greats. They have an approach to the guitar which is not the same as the dobro greats.
I'm not critical of their playing. To the contrary, I like a lot of what they do. It's just different from those players that came up through the Graves, Auldridge, Douglas, Ickes, Booth, Hall, Swift, etc. timeline.
cheers
h
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