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Topic: emmons wrap arround versus bolt on |
Lawrence Main
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 4:48 pm |
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| I have a 1979 emmons push pull d 10. white leather, formica.I am trying to find out the difference between the wrap around and the bolt on model. my bolt on stays in tune for months without tune up.any thoughts on this? |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 8:28 pm
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Well, if your 79 is all original? And if it has an aluminum neck? It's a cut tail not a bolt on. If it has a wood neck. Then it should be a bolt on.
To my ears the bolt on aluminum necks sound the fattest and sustain the best. But unless you play in a temperature controlled
environment? There is no way to keep it in tune. Hence the reason the man who's name the guitar bares would not play one. And the aluminum bolt on was scrapped after about 1 year.
bb |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 8:31 pm
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Double post. Sorry.
Last edited by Bobby Boggs on 29 Aug 2011 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 8:41 pm
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I just finished rebuilding a bolt-on D10 with aluminum necks and have played it twice at the "Little O' Oprey". I have to let it get room temp before it will stay in tune but the sound it gets is worth it to me.
Jerry |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 29 Aug 2011 10:50 pm
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I played a bolt on for years and never had a tuning problem with it. I know guys that currently use there 66 bolt ons for tv shows and major sessions. Buddy Charleton liked his bolt on fine and was the man who suggested I buy one for professional use. I feel like a total dumb ass for ever selling it. My completely ignorant and uninformed opinion is that the Emmons company switched to the cut tail at least partly because it was cheaper and easier to build. Fewer parts and less labour.
_________________
Bob |
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Paul Warnik
From:
Illinois,USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 12:17 am
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[quote="Jerry Roller"] I have to let it get room temp before it will stay in tune but the sound it gets is worth it to me.
This is exactly how I feel too. When I was giging with my metal neck bolt-on, I would get to the job extra early and let it "settle-in". If you are playing in varying temperature extreemes, (like outside on a cool night or on a hot afternoon in direct sunlight) a bolt-on can put up a fight to stay in tune-My solution to that (If you anticipate varied temps i.e.-playing outdoors)
Break out the P/P bolt-on with WOOD necks.(If you're fortunate to have one as a back-up)  |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2011 6:54 am
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Paul, I am currently finishing two lacquer body bolt-ons with wooden necks and will likely keep one of them. I had one once before and sold it. I certainly never had any tuning issues with it.
Jerry |
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Lawrence Main
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2011 4:27 pm 1979 emmons has aluminum necks, guess it must be a cut tail?
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| serial number is 2767,thought it was a bolt on, must be a cut tail ? |
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Shorty Smith
From:
Columbus, Georgia, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2011 5:44 pm
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| I have a 1973 Alum neck bolt on, never had a tuning problem, great guitar, all original, plays excellent, would never get rid of it, Shorty |
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Roger Guyett
From:
San Francisco, Ca.
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Posted 31 Aug 2011 8:55 pm Re: 1979 emmons has aluminum necks, guess it must be a cut t
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| Lawrence Main wrote: |
| serial number is 2767,thought it was a bolt on, must be a cut tail ? |
Based on your description, as Bobby Boggs said, its most likely a cut-tail.
Here's a link to an old post with pictures of the 3 kinds (wrap, bolt-on, cut tail), the pics are a little way down the page:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1299767
Hope that helps you
Roger |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 2 Sep 2011 7:24 am Bolt On
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Sorry, but what does Bolt On refer too? I guess please describe?
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 2 Sep 2011 11:06 am
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| the blocks that hold the changer axle are bolted to the neck. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 2 Sep 2011 3:32 pm
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bent, ..i can't remember
been a long time since i had this one all apart.
...i'm waiting for someone who knows for sure.
Last edited by chris ivey on 3 Sep 2011 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 2 Sep 2011 6:31 pm Bolt-On
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The bolts for the changer blocks are machine screws and are just attached to the neck. They do not extend into the cabinet. I own and play several of these guitars, including the very unusual one I rebuilt in this photo below ('67 #2891). They all stay in tune very well and sound out of this world.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Billy Knowles
From:
Kenansville, N. C. 28349 usa
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Posted 2 Sep 2011 8:08 pm bolt on
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| The "bold on" was Buddy Charleton's favorite. |
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Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
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Posted 2 Sep 2011 8:41 pm
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| Both of my metal neck Emmons bolt-on guitars are more stable with tuning than either the Sho-Bud, Zum, or EMCI all-pull guitars I had. Those all-pull guitars were fine guitars, but all of them needed more tuning adjustments during gigs than the Emmons bolt-ons. I understand the complaint against the bolt-on, and in theory it seems plausible, but I just haven't experienced the tuning problems. I have always been impressed with the way the guitars hold their tuning at gigs, in transport, and at home. I have a feeling that all of those pull rods that are screwed down to the changer fingers with the nylon tuning nuts on all-pull guitars cause more tuning instability than an Emmons neck does. The bolt-on is way more resonant and alive than any other guitar I have played. I also feel this way about my Fender cable guitar compared to the all-pulls that I have had. I have a feeling that all of the pull rods and hardware that is screwed down the top decks of all-pull guitars takes its toll on tuning, feel and tone. |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 2 Sep 2011 10:25 pm
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So let me get this straight.Wood neck bolt on's not included You guys are saying. In a round about way of course. That maybe Buddy Emmons just imagined that the aluminum Bolt On's were more temperature sensitive than the Wrap-Arounds and later Cut Tails. So therefore had Ron discontinue maybe the best sounding Emmons ever built. One poster even implied that Emmons guitar discontinued them to save a few bucks.I've heard that rumor years ago from a man that owns many Emmons guitars. He's a heck of a owner if that impresses you?
As for playing. I want go there. Also keep in mind, Buddy was very active in the Emmons Co. in 1966.Do you really think he would have let Ron discontinue the ultimate guitar just save a few bucks?
The great players that owned Bigsby's learned while having a changer on and Aluminum neck might sound good. It was not a good idea from a tuning stand point. Hence Buddy's design which included a Wrap around changer.
Just in case some of you need more food for thought. Through the early 70's maybe a few years later. You could custom order an Emmons.Yes, even an aluminum bolt on. Yet the pro players like John Hughey always ordered a wood neck Bolt On. The super players of today that still play an Emmons PP. Play and aluminum neck Cut Tail. Jay Dee Maness and Mike Johnson come to mind just to name two. Now both these guys can afford - have any type Emmons they want. Again somthing to think about. 
I mentioned in my 1st post that the Aluminum neck Bolt On sounded great.But are prone to tuning issues in anything less than a temperature controlled environment.
I hate these brand X versus brand X threads. No one ever agrees and never will. But sense I had already posted my opinion, and after reading all the other postings that implied there were no tuning issues with an aluminum neck Bolt On. Well I gotta live with myself.
The bottom line. Yes, and aluminum neck Bolt ON has more tuning issues where temperature changes are evolved than it's younger brother the Cut Tail. If you only play at home or on stage where the lighting is the same from start to finish. You'll be ok. But if you have to deal with today's stages with the big light cans,fans, and some have heat and air conditioning. All the above mentioned creating sudden temperature changes.Then good luck.
Since several posters have these guitars for sale. Let me say I have no interest in putting a damper on the Bolt On market. Because I also own one. And only and idiot would want to shoot himself in the foot.
Again, I think to imply that aluminum Bolt On has no more tuning issues than the Cut-tails and Wrap Around's is just wrong. 
Also this may cost me some good friends. I hope not. But I had to say what I had to say.
bb |
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Jack Strayhorn
From:
Winston-Salem, NC
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Posted 3 Sep 2011 4:24 am
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| The bolt on was Ron Lashley Sr. favorite. |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2011 6:15 am
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Bobby, we are still and will always be friends, and, I agree with everything you said. You are actually quite good with words. However, like I said, I find the bolt-on to be more tempermental (temperature change) I am finding it very much worth the occasional trim up of tuning. I have the stroboflip tuner right there on the right rear leg and it has the diode removed that allows me to leave it plugged in all the time so it takes little effort to trim it up a few times during the night. The sound is worth it to me. I have two 67 cuttails and a 66 converted cuttail as well as an 81 and they all sound great. I would love to have a wraparound. It has a mystic appeal to me but I don't know enough about them to trust my judgement if I had a chance to buy one. There are some of them that I understand have some less desirable features and I just don't have the education that Chris L. and some others have so I would probably pass on a great one or buy a lemon. I do love the bolt-on.
Jerry |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 3 Sep 2011 8:44 am
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Bobby,
You are probably right. My opinion is based only on my limited personal experience. All I know is the years I was actively playing Emmons push pull guitars I owned 2. One was a 66 bolt on and the other was a 70's cut tail. I was touring with them and playing pretty decent stages all over the world at the time. I also was using them in the studio under very critical situations. I never had any more problems then usual as far the guitars keeping there tuning intact. The guitars they replaced were JCH and Franklin.
Now a guitar with tuning issues is the all metal necks Bigby type console made by Clinesmith. Under lights or a cooling vent that sucker wanders. I could see the switch to wood necks on that one. It is worth chasing the tuning around a bit for me though. The sound is glorious.
Here is a sample of the sound of my bolt on if I can get the soundcloud thing to work. Blending with a freakin orchestra is pretty hard for me. I wasn't about to bring a steel that put up a fight ! Greg Leisz used to borrow my bolt on when he came to NYC. It was just 2 serial numbers away from his main guitar. He used it on some pretty big and public performances.
http://soundcloud.com/bobhoffnar/bolt-on-edit
_________________
Bob |
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Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
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Posted 3 Sep 2011 9:16 am
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| Bobby (or anyone who might know), if BE "was very active in the Emmons Co. in 1966," and if BE had previously designed the wrap-around guitar to not have the tuning issues that Bigsbys with aluminum necks with directly attached changers had, why would Emmons even consider making a bolt-on guitar? If Emmons already knew what would happen if they attached the changer to an aluminum neck, why even consider making one? Also, when "the aluminum bolt on was scrapped after about 1 year," why not go back to making wrap-arounds? Why design the cut-tail when the original wrap-around had already solved the tuning problems of the metal neck bolt-on? Was the bolt-on a stepping stone away from the wrap-around? Why not just go back to the original wrap-around design? |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 3 Sep 2011 9:40 am
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| This topic has prompted me to do some quick googling of the temperature expansion coefficients of various materials, and I think that the best tuning stability for a bolt on would be achieved by using stainless steel strings, instead of nickel wound strings, as the coefficient of expansion for stainless is closer to aluminium than nickel is |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2011 9:53 am
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I don't claim to know the answer but I have a theory that the aluminum neck bolt on tuning problems could depend on how tight the neck bolts were and even which bolts are tight. If most of the neck can "float" on loose bolts yet the changer end is tight enough to not allow movement of the changer which could have the same result as "cabinet drop" it would seem that the tuning problems would be no worse than a wraparound or split. If the neck can't grab the body it has no anchor from which to expand and contract. It just struck me that a bolt on with steel dowels into the body at the changer end like the LeGrande III anti-detuner plate has with the rest of the neck loose enough to expand and contract under the tuning head should be no more of a tuning problem than any other guitar. I don't know for sure but at this moment it seems logical to me.
Jerry |
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Lawrence Main
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2011 4:33 pm emmons bolt on
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| perhaps the reason my 1967 bolt on stays in tune so well,is the cobra strings. |
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