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Topic: Tuning down 1/2 note |
Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 4:46 pm |
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| I am doing a few fill in gigs with a band that tunes guitars and bass 1/2 step down. I've never come across this before. Has anyone ever tuned their PSG a half note flat before? Any string gauge issues? TIA for any feedback. |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 5:27 pm tuning down
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The Hard Livin Band I was with did that 'cause it was better for the singer - it's just dumb but he didn't want to quit smokin & drinking all night so he couldn't hit the high notes anymore. it's easy to play a steel in any key (I never retuned my steel from standard) but it sucked for banjo & I stopped bringing the dobro.
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Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband |
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John Haspert
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 5:56 pm Tuning Down
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Some bands do it not for the vocals, because it gives a bit darker sound. In the studio, we have done that for that reason. In the folk days, a lot of 12-string acoustic guys did it for the "fuller sound" reason because there were more string vibrations from the looser strings tuned D G C F A D. I got use to playing that way, just one full tone up since it was commonly tuned 1 full step down. In a couple of bands I have played in, we have used the combo of 12-string tuned 1 full step down and a Nashville tuned guitar and it gives quite the full sound to the rhythm. But then I am a die-hard 12-string guy; you know Byrds, Beatles etc. Never tried that with PSG in the band though. It's so much easier though when all use standard tunings.
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Pedal Steel Guitar is "Music from Heaven" |
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Allan Thompson
From:
Scotland.
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Posted 19 Aug 2011 11:08 pm
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| Buck Owens and the Buckaroos tuned down a half step. |
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Bobby Snell
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 20 Aug 2011 12:23 am
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Changing the tuning for a few fill-ins hardly seems worth it. For the guitar to feel right calls for heavier gauges; the stops would probably need tweaking. The rollers handle heavier strings?
How much "open string playing" you usually do? I'd do it if I was playing with a band de-tuning for 2 or 3 weeks, or for recording. |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 20 Aug 2011 3:49 am Allan
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Allan =If I had to play one of those old cable operated Fender pedal steels I'd be the first to suggest it 
_________________
Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2011 7:10 am
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I play S12U.
I tried it both ways, and for me, tuning the entire instrument down a half step was better than playing between the frets all night.
I liked the way the pedals/levers felt, and didn't have any show-stopping tuning issues.
If you wanted to, you could buy (or make) a set of Bb6th strings (basically the same a Eb9th) to match the string guages to the open tuning.
http://www.jagwirestrings.biz/catalog/i71.html
My 2 cents.
Pete B. |
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Robert Parent
From:
Gillette, WY
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Posted 20 Aug 2011 1:53 pm
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When I started playing back in the 70's I could only afford a Fender 1000 which I tuned to Eb9th. The reason for doing this is that there was no way to hold 3rd strings on a guitar with a solid bridge. Even with the Fender tuned down a half step it still ate strings.
I played that guitar for almost 4 years before getting a Sho Bud.
Robert |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2011 3:14 pm
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| Allan Thompson wrote: |
| Buck Owens and the Buckaroos tuned down a half step. |
| Robert Parent wrote: |
| When I started playing back in the 70's I could only afford a Fender 1000 which I tuned to Eb9th. The reason for doing this is that there was no way to hold 3rd strings on a guitar with a solid bridge. Even with the Fender tuned down a half step it still ate strings. |
From the interviews I've read with Tom Brumley, that was the reason Buck and the Buckaroos did it. |
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Larry Hamilton
From:
Amarillo,Tx
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Posted 21 Aug 2011 6:15 pm
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I played with aband for a while that tuned for the "fuller sound" then capoed right back up. Am I missing something here? I just played one fret down. It made me think more using different positions. One just needs to do what is easiest for them.
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Keep pickin', Larry |
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Mark Dershaw
From:
Arizona and Ohio
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 4:28 am
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| I started playing with some folks recently who tune down 1/2 step. I tried tuning down a half step and didn't like at all. Probably had most to do with the tension of the strings overall but nothing felt right so I tuned back up and play out of the odd positions. I don't play with them a lot so I don't think it's worthwhile to change up the string gauges. |
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Steve Green
From:
Gulfport, MS, USA
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 6:13 am
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A good friend of mine tunes all his 12 string acoustics down 1/2 note. I always assumed it was to reduce tension on the guitar's top / bridge.
I've also heard that blues great SRV tuned his Strats down 1/2 tone to enable bending the strings more.
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Some songs I've written |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 9:14 am
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I played guitar for a long while with a guy who tuned down a semitone some of the time, and capoed back up one fret some of the time (and capoed to all kinds of other random positions at other times as well). It used to drive me bats, so I just rearranged my parts and stayed in standard tuning. He also tended to write other songs on piano in the "accidental" keys anyway, so I was already used to not playing open chord stuff on his songs. But it still made me crazy, because there was no musical rhyme or reason to it; I think he just thought it "sounded cool". Whether it did or didn't is open for debate!
The biggest challenges on steel would be if you are either playing a lot of stuff at the first fret (things in F or Bb particularly) or using open strings regularly in the parts; otherwise, there's not a lot of reason to tune down, other than to try to match the timbre.
My dad tuned to extended 12-string D9, which gave him some overlap into the C6 range and tonality. And I know Poco and Rusty Young tuned down a semitone, at least in their early days - possibly because their vocal parts were so high up there as it was.... |
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Gary Lee Gimble
From:
Fredericksburg, VA.
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 9:52 am
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This subject has come up many, many times on the Forum.
I keep my PSG tuned to Eb9 and B6. My strings never break.
I also tune my regular guitar down half a tone, for the following reasons...
[1] It's easier to push strings in the blues.
[2] Eb is all the black notes on a keyboard.
[3] I play a lot of lute, and the tuning is G#min. With the guitar tuned down half a tone that equates to Amin. |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 22 Aug 2011 9:54 pm
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| Interesting, Alan: the lute tuning that I learned was 7 courses, basically like a.) a guitar tuned down a whole tone, plus a high G string, or b.) a guitar capoed on the third fret with the 3rd string lowered a semitone, plus a low D string. But I haven't seen my friend who owned the lute for many years. I do recall trying those two configurations on guitar to figure out some Julian Bream things, though.... |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 23 Aug 2011 4:46 am
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As Dave O'Brien said above, it's not a big deal playing out of any position on PSG unless there's something specific where you need open strings. I think guitarists tend to use open strings more than steel, that's one of the reasons they sometimes change tuning or use a capo. I would not generally change PSG tuning to match what a guitarist does with his or her tuning.
Another reason guitar players tune up or down is to change the tonality of the instrument. SRV often tuned down to Eb, but I wouldn't say it was to facilitate easy bending. He used pretty heavy strings, something like 13-56 with a wound 3rd, so I wouldn't exactly call that a typical slinky blues-set-up guitar. But it does sound good for many things. Some guitarists (e.g., playing certain heavy metal styles) tune down more than this - down as far as C. I don't think this is to facilitate bending either, and they generally use significantly heavier strings (think, e.g., Zakk Wylde, who has special GHS sets for this). On the other hand, Flatt and Scruggs were reputed to tune up to F to get a crisper sound.
You may need to adjust some pedal/lever stops when changing string gauge (at a fixed pitch) or when changing pitch (on a fixed string type/gauge). When lowering the nominal (open-string) tension on a string of the same type/gauge, the throw necessary to achieve the same change (e.g., 1/2 tone, whole tone) might change. This probably isn't a big deal on an all-pull, but might be more of a PITA on a push-pull. As Pete B. mentions, one could increase string gauges a bit to restore the original string tension and avoid this. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2011 5:57 am
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Jimi Hendrix tuned to Eb. I've always thought that was at least the initial reason SRV did.
Do bands that tune down make the terminology adjustment, or do they still call, for example, the open-position guitar chord shapes E-A-D-G-C-B7 by those names without adding "flat" to them? That might be a reason for re-tuning, to avoid the mental step on the bandstand of having to "translate" when the band calls the key for a song. Or if you're watching the guitar player's left hand to get the chords you would have to fight ingrained habit because the chord that looks like C is really B, etc. (I'm assuming a band where everything isn't pre-rehearsed.) |
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Mark Dershaw
From:
Arizona and Ohio
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Posted 23 Aug 2011 6:06 am
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The people that I play with say it like they play it. So they call out a chord and I have to process the "flat". I've found that it's a whole lot easier for me to work on the songs at home, nail down the positions and come to practice prepared. Then there are the times when I get to practice and they've decided to change the key for the singer  |
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Marc Friedland
From:
Fort Collins, CO
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Posted 23 Aug 2011 9:02 am
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Like others have said – if you know the tunes and the keys they’re going to be in, it’s easy enough to just stay in standard tuning.
If I’m sitting in with a band for the first time, and not knowing ahead of time what songs or keys they’ll be in, then I might be tempted to tune down a half-step if that’s how the guitarist is doing it. The reason is – when I look at the guitarist to see what chords he’s playing, or when they say the song’s in the key of G, I know it will be G for me as well, and not have to adjust for the tuning discrepancy while at the same time be listening for and memorizing the chord changes, melody of the song, etc, so I’m ready and able to play the song reasonably well.
-- Marc
www.PedalSteelGuitarMusic.com |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 23 Aug 2011 9:13 am
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| Paul Hoaglin wrote: |
| Interesting, Alan: the lute tuning that I learned was 7 courses, basically like a.) a guitar tuned down a whole tone, plus a high G string, or b.) a guitar capoed on the third fret with the 3rd string lowered a semitone, plus a low D string. But I haven't seen my friend who owned the lute for many years. I do recall trying those two configurations on guitar to figure out some Julian Bream things, though.... |
There are many tunings for lute. The one most used is the German G#min tuning. Imagine an Amin chord on a guitar and lower it by a semitone. Sometimes I use that tuning on lap steel. |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2011 10:33 am
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| Gary Lee Gimble wrote: |
Jeff, where and when, I wanna come to listen  |
Gary... I only have a few chops left. I'd invite you, but you have a way of not only stealing my chops, but sucking them right out of my brain.. and I can never find them again. That's why you're so freakin' good !!  |
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Jeff Hyman
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2011 10:42 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
I tried it both ways, and for me, tuning the entire instrument down a half step was better than playing between the frets all night.
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That's what I was thinking too. My brain had a hard time with the change... so tuning down sounded like the best idea. Interesting feedback on string gauge. All the reply's are greatly appreciated. |
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