Questions from a serious soon to be non-pedal steel player

Bob Martin · From: Madison Tn

Some of you might remember me posting a few years ago about wanting to finally buy and learn to play a Pedal Steel guitar and at the time I was very serious, but since then my Heavenly Father has asked me to change directions. If any one is interested in what happened you can PM me and I'll be glad to explain the reason for me changing directions from a pedal steel to a non pedal steel but it is mostly due to physical inabilities.

So the question I have is for someone like me that wants to play country music along with western swing, big band, and even bluegrass, what kind of a non pedal steel guitar would you guys recommend single neck, double neck or should I just give up hehehehe?

To give yo a few of my thoughts and what kind of music I really love to play, I love straight older country ballads along with fast older country music. Songs like George Jones's "He Stopped Loving Her Today" for a ballad and something like "Working Man Blues" for a fast older country song. Then for Western Swing songs "Roly Poly" and "Bubbles in my Beer".

Now of course those aren't the only songs I know and want to learn how to play on a non pedal but just a sample of the kind of music I love to play.

But please remember that I've been playing the guitar professionally for over 30 years so my approach to learning non pedal steel will not be learning one song at a time Smile

I will try to start learning with the mechanics such as tunings, scales, positions ie the fundamentals, scales and theory. So what I really want to do it learn the non pedal steel the right way which is completely the opposite from the way I taught myself the guitar LOL! I really did teach myself to play the guitar and sorry to say I made so many mistakes that I never realized my potential that I could have if I had been given proper tutelage while learning the guitar.

So if anyone has any ideas of a direction for me to go in I would sure appreciate it. Thanks so much!!

Bob Martin
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S.M. Johnson · From: Oregon, USA

Just pondering your thoughts here.......

In the olden days, I understand the steel guitar musicians really didn't have very many "idols" or
"Examples" to emulate. In this day and age, not only do you have the opinions/preferences of more than 10,000 steel guitar players here on the SGF, but also have YOU TUBE, and dozens of recording steel players that can greatly influence your choice of playing styles. This can and does lead to gigantic mental conflicts, ear clashes and simple confusion.

My simple minded suggestion would be to simply listen to as many records that you can, and find a steel artist that really strikes your fancy. Seek help and identify the exact tuning. Players got that kind of exposure via radio disc jockeys that are no more.

Now, you have one neck taken care of. Who else do you admire? Again, determine the accurate tuning and string it up on neck two. Repeat this process if you desire a triple neck guitar. Don't get ahead of yourself, worrying about cabinet drop, string gages, etc,. etc.

Look around and find a good used guitar, then one at a time, start to learn and master each tuning. Take them one at a time as quite often there is no similarity to different tunings. I've heard some fellows claim that by learning one or two instrumentals by a given artist, will do more to help them lay a foundation for learning a new/unfamiliar tuning.

Start out on your own and IGNORE all of the rest of the guys on record! To the untrained ear, all current steel players sound the same however quite often, their tunings and/or pedal will differ greatly from one artist to another.

These are just my thoughts on the subject. Good Luck to you! THIS is the heart of the challenge of learning to play steel guitar.

Dom Franco · From: Beaverton, OR, 97007

Ok here goes with a few answers for you that are just my oppinion (50 years non pedal experience)

1. Just get yourself a 6 string non-pedal, any brand will do from a $79 Chinese rogue (www.Musiciansfriend.com)on up to a nice vintage National (Valco)

2. Tune it to a 6th tuning (C6th is the most popular and there is a ton of tablature out there for it)
My favorite is A6th.

3. Being a guitar player you will easily learn where the chords are (I IV V etc) and in no time you will be able to sit in with other musicians and jam.

4. The biggest hurdles you will face are all related to the bar hand:
INTONATION by ear (No frets)
RATTLES bar pressure,when putting it on and off
BLOCKING stopping the noise and unwanted notes
VIBRATO sounding sweet and smooth not shakey
SLANTS getting new chords and intervals in tune

I play lap steel professionally (2 to 3 paying gigs a week) and I teach several steel guitar students.
AND These are the same things we all have to work on
continually.

ONE MORE THING
you will have to get used to finger picks if you don't already use them...
DOM Whoa!

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John D. Carter · From: Canton, Ohio, USA

What Dom Franco said. Smile

Bob Martin · From: Madison Tn

Thanks guys, at least I will have a starting point and can go from there. I'm sure I will have a lot of decisions to make before I buy a steel because as you know they don't give the steels away Smile

I've already been looking at a few guitars mostly double necks.

So anyway I appreciate all of replies, thanks!

Bob Martin
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Eric Ebner · From: Texas Republic

By all means enjoy yourself! It will sound best to any future audience if you stick with this principal. Make mistakes... keep on playing;-) My 2 cents- and all the info above!

Eric
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Hugh Holstein · From: Rohnert Park, California, USA

That's been my philosophy as well, if your graceful enough with some mistakes such as dropping in a half step off, you can make it sound as if you meant to do it anyway.

Bob Martin · From: Madison Tn

That's funny Hugh, us old 6 stringers call those kind of clunkers Jazz improvisation and when we play one of those "Jazz" licks we just look at the steel player and smile and say ain't jazz great Smile

But as far as that goes I'm sure it will be a while before anyone hears me except my kitty and dog LOL!

Bob
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

For the music you like to play, I'd recommend a double 8. Tune the front neck to E13 with a high G#, and the back to C6 or A6 with a high E. Play the country stuff on the E13 and the swing on the C6, just like the pedal players do. It's always worked well for me when I get "standup steel" gigs.

Note that the difference between C6 and A6 is just tuning 4 strings (3 if you leave the low string at G). They are very similar. The bluegrass songs work well in A6, and it's a quick retune C6.

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

I agree 100% with Bob on this. I've got E13 on the front neck and A6th on the back neck of my D-8 Stringmaster. But I'm lazy and sit to play it. Easier for vol pedal work for me.
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Hal Braun · From: Eustis, Florida, USA

I am a beginning non pedal player.. and I suggest you check here:

http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/index.php

John is a great student of non pedal steel, and gives lessons via Skype. To me, it always made sense to have someone help you get the right foundation before taking off.. learn it right before developing your own bad habits Smile

Good luck.. and I can also tell you, the commonalities between 6 string guitar and a steel is the strings Laughing

It really is a whole different world.. of course having the ear, knowing songs, theory etc help, but as far as technique goes.. well, not much carry over..

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The thing about the high E13 is that it's the direct ancestor of E9th pedal steel. With bar slants, you can get all of those classic slow E9th songs like "Together Again". Plus of course it's the tuning that Don Helms used on the Hank Williams songs. It's often described as "that high lonesome sound".

A6 has the 5th on top like the Dobro G tuning. Most people think of it as a Hawaiian tuning, but I like it for the really old songs like Carter Family stuff. A lot of regular folks learned the A Major lap steel tuning in the 30's and 40's, and it's right there in the A6th. Maybe that's why it fits so well.
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Chuck S. Lettes · From: Denver, Colorado

I come from a pedal seel background and now use a modified C6th for my six string lap steel: (highest)GECAGF(or E). I find that I can play lots of different styles, without those pesky slants. Here's a link to some of the tunes: http://www.hsga.org/ChuckLettes.htm
Chuck

Billy Tonnesen · From: R.I.P., Buena Park, California

What ever you are playing try to keep your hands and mind relaxed. Do not tense up. The more you play the easier this will become.

Bob Martin · From: Madison Tn

Wow Bob and all you others this is very valuable info! I've been so lost I didn't even have an idea of what steel to even look at meaning 1 neck 2 neck and tunings, I appreciate this info more than you know!

The double neck 8 string makes perfect sense to me now that Bob told me about it. I think my guitar background should help at least as far as the theory goes but now those slants kind of scare me LOL But as soon as I find a guitar I'm going to jump right in with all the gusto of a hound dog Smile

If I never become a killer double 8 steel player I expect to have fun and possibly get some of my motivation to play again. The loss of my leg pretty much hit me harder than I thought it would and actually I had a pedal steel bought when I broke my leg, I had not actually paid all of the money but I had put half down and the seller contacted me and very graciously offered my money back! Now that's a pal who knows how many offers he turned down while waiting on me to get the other half to him. But thankfully he did sell it about a month later. Thanks again guys!

Bob Martin
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Bob Martin · From: Madison Tn

Hi guys, sorry for so man y questions and I'll try to slow down asapbut this guitar is for sale over in "steel guitars for sale" http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=207366

It looks great and I guess I'm wondering if this the kind of guitar b0b was talking about? It looks to be in good shape and the price seems pretty good. Please know that I am not looking for any member to put this guitar down I only wish to find out if these kind of guitars are a good starting place and will it be tuneable like b0b was saying?

Please don't take the person that is selling it in to consideration I think I can decipher that on my own and he's not on the "dishonest list" Smile

so any way please give me your opinion on the guitar itself. I sure appreciae your help, by the way this guitar looks a lot like the one that Cindy Cashdollar use to play with Asleep at the wheel several years back.

Bob
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Bob, I'm mostly a guitar and pedal steel player, but I've been doing more nonpedal lately. After doing a lot of research on the forum and trying various tunings for a while, I put that exact E13 front-neck, C6/A6 back neck configuration that b0b described on my '58 D8 Stringmaster. I'm using the "Scotty's" 8-string E13 and C6 sets (made by SIT, using semi-flat wound strings), and the whole setup feels great. I agree with b0b that the E13 really does have a lot of the feel of the E9 pedal steel - of course, it's different, but a lot of the E9 pedal sounds can be obtained. From what I can glean, C6/A6 is probably the 'meat and potatoes' tuning for a lot of nonpedal players. If you look at some previous threads on nonpedal tunings, you'll see that it's pretty easy to retune that C6/A6 a bunch of different ways to get different sounds.

On that Dual Pro guitar: I just bought a different '54 Fender Dual Professional D8 to go along with my aforementioned Stringmaster. Except for that fact, I would have already bought that 51 Dual Pro you're looking at. Aside from one rewound pickup, it looks like a nice original one at a fair price. There's some obvious honest wear on it, but from everything I see, it looks like a nice vintage piece. I think about it this way - if this was a 1951 Nocaster or Telecaster, what would the price be? (Hint: I'll tell you the vintage guitar 'book' is well into the 5 figures, even in this economy). To me, $875-1000 for killer vintage Fender console steels like this seems like an insane bargain. Other makers building these now charge more than this, and if Fender built one now, it would probably be a lot more expensive. I understand that the market dictates all this, and I guess that's the going rate now. But if I had spare cash on me right now, I'd buy this as an investment. I suppose it's possible that this stuff will never really go up that much, but for the life of me, I would have a hard time understanding why. These are really cool guitars. I not only think they are a good 'starting place', but probably also a good 'ending place' - I think I should be set for life. Of course, this doesn't mean I won't have other console steels, but I doubt I'd ever 'need' another.

Of course, this is all just my take on this, and there are people out there who know a helluvalot more than I do about it. But I have a hard time seeing how anybody wanting to do vintage country music on a console steel could go wrong with a solid Fender Dual Pro D8 under a grand, and that's why I put my money where my mouth is last week on mine.

Tom Pettingill · From: California, USA (deceased)

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I agree with Dave, who agrees with me. Laughing

Regarding slants, if you make a fretboard chart of where all the notes are and draw lines with colored pencils connecting the notes of the C, F and G chords, the patterns will become very obvious. The technique of stanting the bar isn't all that hard to learn. Just remember - it's done with the fingers, not with the arm or the wrist. Control the bar with your hand.

I started slanting the bar successfully within a week of getting my first lap steel 40 years ago. Forward slants only, but it allowed me to play a harmonized scale sliding up and down the neck. That was all I needed to get excited about playing country music! Mr. Green

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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

big bob...i'm sure you'll look just as pretty as cindy cashdollar sitting behind that steel!

to forum members..bob is an excellent guitarist having done years of playing with jim murphy and several other monsters of the steel. he's also a wonderful person with a great sense of humor in the face of adversity. ya gotta love him!

Bob Martin · From: Madison Tn

David and b0b again thanks I am about to send an email to the owner of the 51 Fender and try to dig up some cash to purchase it. I think just the idea that this steel was made by Fender in 1951 and by all of the pictures looks very good especially it having all original parts except one minor detail. I actually think it is beautiful so I'll let you know when I get it if I can dig up the money Smile

Now to you Chris, you promised you would quit those left handed cigarettes because you have either had a stroke or slipped back to your 1960 and 70's ways LOL! All kidding aside Chris thanks for the very kind words and if the truth be known Murph is the reason I want to play steel. For those of you who knew him knew he loved playing non pedal double and triple neck more than pedal steel and if he hadn't of passed on to be with the Lord he was going to find me a nice dual neck and teach me how to play it. When I asked him about playing pedal steel he told me that I would enjoy a non pedal steel much more and I would pick it up much quicker and maybe even to play a song or two before I was 100 LOL RIP my brother!!

Thanks again Chris God Bless ya!!

Big Bob
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Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

This D8 Rickenbacker was posted a while back and the listing was never closed. I am astonished that no one jumped on this as the price seems very low. I have been racking my brain to come up with a plan to buy it myself but it's just not in the cards for me now. Check out the links within the post for a video demo of the guitar. Might be the one for you Bob:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=205426

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I thought that was sold, but I don't see it in my records so maybe not. Contact Vern Jr. about it. It's a pretty cool model. I saw Bobby Black playing one a few years ago. Sounded great!
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Jack Aldrich · From: Washington, USA

I play Dobro and both pedal and non-pedal steel, mostly the latter these days, since I went Hawaiian. I, too, use a C6, but with a Bb on the bottom, for my Dobros and single neck steels. I keep a B11 on the upper neck of my Stringmaster double 8 for that great Jues Ah See sound. I find that I can play very country and Western Swing on a C6 steel, using slants to get diminished and augmented chords. As an example, I played "Crazy" on my C6 pedal steel neck with a lot of pedal and knee action, but discovered that it plays easily on my 8 string C6, (bottom) Bb C E G A C E G, with slants for the diminished chords. I am fortunate to have learned lap steel from Alan Akaka, who was one of Jerry Byrd's prime students, who used Jerry's approach to steel guitar. I use the technique on pedal steel to make it smooth.

Steven Pearce · From: Port Orchard Washington, USA

You guys ALL have great ideas! Dom Franco pegged it though.I chose an instrument, decided on songs and then spent a few YEARS figuring out how to even get close to good intonation.

ALSO... think outside the box..
Its not just for hawaiian ( See Garland Nash doing 'Coconut Grove'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ9_ktuGWL8
or country.
I was hired to play one gig with a band called 'The Magic Carpet Ride", made up of some Steppenwolf guys...My job was strictly to play rythm guitar, the guy liked how I played it.
NOW..imagine playing "Born To Be Wild" -just the chords on your lap steel.
Steve Pearce/Port Orchard pick'in[/url]
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